Probably the cheapest way to get into reloading is with the Lee collet die sets, that come with a bullet seating die, a case holder and a collet neck size die. There is no full length size die, so you are continuously using fire formed brass to fit your rifle specifically.
I have been using this combo on my 204 Ruger, and the reloads of the fire formed cases still appear to be accurate, and I have not had a case get stuck. The neck tension also appears to be fairly consistent.
Does anybody have extensive experience with these sets, and can provide more info on likes and dislikes?
What I found was that:
1 - The collet sized and the full length sized do not shoot same results.
2 - The collet sized and the neck sized do not shoot same results.
3 - After a shot or two the shoulder will move forewords and you will have to F/L sized again.
You then have to do load development again because the F/L sized case and tensions shoots different pressures and POI and grouping.
Perhaps you can save a F/L case type load and a collet die load for after shoulder bump back, but i jus gave it up as a bad Idea.
I now use my F/L die to F/L size or bump shoulder back or partially size the neck.
I use a body die to bump the shoulder, followed by the collet die for the necks.
It gives very good neck tension consistency and excellent concentricity. It's an extra step, but in don't load massive volumes and it's worth it IMHO.
On it's own, it doesn't sound like a great plan, as others have stated above.
Tell me about this body die - sizes the body ?
Is there a shoulder only die ?
Quote from: Treeman on Jan 08, 2024, 01:28 PMWhat I found was that:
1 - The collet sized and the full length sized do not shoot same results.
2 - The collet sized and the neck sized do not shoot same results.
3 - After a shot or two the shoulder will move forewords and you will have to F/L sized again.
You then have to do load development again because the F/L sized case and tensions shoots different pressures and POI and grouping.
Perhaps you can save a F/L case type load and a collet die load for after shoulder bump back, but i jus gave it up as a bad Idea.
I now use my F/L die to F/L size or bump shoulder back or partially size the neck.
I agree with point #1. Fire formed brass will shoot different from full length sized brass. This is well documented. Point #2 can differ, but not as much as in point #1. The only reason for this that I can think of, is that the neck sizer vs collet either has a different neck tension, or that there are differences in the centering of the case neck, resulting in the bullet seating a bit off center.
Quote from: Treeman on Jan 08, 2024, 07:59 PMTell me about this body die - sizes the body ?
Is there a shoulder only die ?
I use a Redding body die. Sizes the body, and bumps the shoulder back. Leaves the neck unmolested.
If you have a lathe you can make your own, by either drilling out a full length die's neck, or by cutting a full length die to just below the neck/shoulder junction.
As far as I am aware only Forster and custom die makers produce shoulder bump dies.
Quote from: jager on Jan 08, 2024, 08:08 PMQuote from: Treeman on Jan 08, 2024, 07:59 PMTell me about this body die - sizes the body ?
Is there a shoulder only die ?
I use a Redding body die. Sizes the body, and bumps the shoulder back. Leaves the neck unmolested.
If you have a lathe you can make your own, by either drilling out a full length die's neck, or by cutting a full length die to just below the neck/shoulder junction.
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Its the shoulders I wish to move a thou or two, save the fireformed case as is. I can not think of a good reason to size the body and not the shoulder? May just as well then use a FL die set out a bit ?
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Its the shoulders I wish to move a thou or two, save the fireformed case as is. I can not think of a good reason to size the body and not the shoulder? May just as well then use a FL die set out a bit ?
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It should be easy to make such a die. Hole big enough to not work on the sides of the case and then an angled top part with the correct angle for calibre. Base threaded to screw into press. Bob's your uncle.
I have used the Lee Collet dies for all calibers they are available for.
I do adjust the mandrel diameter to get the neck tension I want. You can make neck tension the same as what your FL die gives. Just measure the case neck diameter after sizing and adjust until the are the same. (That presupposes your necks are uniform.)
Neck tension and headspace are the main differences between Collet-sized and FL sized cases. Keep the neck tension the same and head space minimal (0,001' - 0,002") and they should shoot the same from most rifles.
Only when the bolt starts to close with some difficulty, will I use the FL sizer die to push the shoulders back a bit. This usually hapens after 10 - 20 firings, depending on case shape etc. On my 375 H&H I have not resorted to FL sizing after 22 firings.
The primary advantage of the Collet Neck Sizer die is increased case life. I have not yet worn out a batch of cases that were sized with the Collet Neck sizer from the start.
Concentricity of sized cases and loaded ammo is great too.
Quote from: 223 on Jan 10, 2024, 03:31 PMThe primary advantage of the Collet Neck Sizer die is increased case life. I have not yet worn out a batch of cases that were sized with the Collet Neck sizer from the start.
Given the price of rifle brass that is a good enough reason on its own for a tightwad like me.
I am collet sizing for the .303, all other calibers are partially sized using full length die.
Sold all my neck and collet dies.
I hope I do not regret this.
How do you adjust the mandrels?
I think that most of the perceived advantages of a collet die are not limited to collet dies. Concentricity is not any better or worse than a bushing die. I cannot see how it would make cases last any longer than a bushing neck-sizing die.
The only practical advantages I can see is that Lee dies are cheaper than other brands and that no case lubrication is required for case sizing.
The disadavntage of a collet die is that actual neck-sizing is dependent on how much force you place on the handle when sizing.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMThe disadavntage of a collet die is that actual neck-sizing is dependent on how much force you place on the handle when sizing.
I would think that the relationship between force and neck tension is exponential, i.e. at the beginning of the press cycle a small amount of force has a significant effect, and as you push harder against the mandrel, the effect on neck tension starts to become negligible. Basically, law of diminishing returns. So it shouldn't matter much if your 9 year daughter operates the press, or Eben Etzabeth. I think this is why, despite this apparent drawback, these dies are popular, and effective.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMHow do you adjust the mandrels?
Easy to make them smaller, but not bigger. Just spin them on a drill and rub with fine sand paper and buffing compound and keep measuring till you get the diameter you want. Or use a lathe if you have one.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMHow do you adjust the mandrels?
I think that most of the perceived advantages of a collet die are not limited to collet dies. Concentricity is not any better or worse than a bushing die. I cannot see how it would make cases last any longer than a bushing neck-sizing die.
The only practical advantages I can see is that Lee dies are cheaper than other brands and that no case lubrication is required for case sizing.
The disadavntage of a collet die is that actual neck-sizing is dependent on how much force you place on the handle when sizing.
The difference is a collet die sizes the inside of the neck to the size of the mandrel. It's not particularly sensitive to how much pressure you apply. A wide range of pressures will result in the same interior neck size.
A bushing die sizes the outside of the neck, yet the bullet goes on the inside. If you didn't do neck turning on all your cases, the inside diameter and neck tension will not be consistent.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMHow do you adjust the mandrels?
The mandrels come with a relatively large diameter from the factory resulting in minimal bullet grip. If you want more grip, you can polish the mandrel down to give as much grip as you want. Neck size is determined by the mandrel diameter. Mandrels are available separately, so you can keep different diameter mandrels if you so wish.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMI think that most of the perceived advantages of a collet die are not limited to collet dies. Concentricity is not any better or worse than a bushing die. I cannot see how it would make cases last any longer than a bushing neck-sizing die.
Concentricity should be the same as with a bushing die set for the same bullet grip. The more you size the neck when sizing, and stretch again when seating, the more it can by pushed off-center. The less you size and stretch it, the closer to center you will end. This is why some shooters size for minimal bullet grip (amongst other reasons).
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMThe only practical advantages I can see is that Lee dies are cheaper than other brands and that no case lubrication is required for case sizing.
Those advantages seem real to me.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 10, 2024, 10:53 PMThe disadvantage of a collet die is that actual neck-sizing is dependent on how much force you place on the handle when sizing.
No, that is not how they work. The inside neck size is determined by the mandrel, which is as fixed as it gets. If you are pedantic about the force applied, you can use a torque wrench as a lever on your press, but I think it is a waste of time.
IF one had a lot of money then one could buy them ALL and have fun testing
or
IF one was a member of a good reloading club the costs could be split / shared
Dies could then be rented out to members.
Quote from: Newton on Feb 02, 2024, 10:40 PMIF one had a lot of money then one could buy them ALL and have fun testing
I think with reloading, once you do the basics right, and get your groups down to certain size, it get statistically more difficult to prove that something does actually make a difference.
If you do some basic power/sample size calculations, you will find out that you need to shoot a hell of a lot of bullets to prove that there is 10% improvement in group size.
Some people like to spend money to chase their particular rabbit down its hole. My gut feel is that 90 percent of the money spent on fancy reloading gear achieves nothing meaningful in the hands of its spenders that basic gear couldn't achieve.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Feb 04, 2024, 11:55 AMSome people like to spend money to chase their particular rabbit down its hole. My gut feel is that 90 percent of the money spent on fancy reloading gear achieves nothing meaningful in the hands of its spenders that basic gear couldn't achieve.
I agree. I am only using Lee dies that i started off with, way back, to achieve better than MOA with my rifles. The collet dies save a hell of a lot of time to achieve excellent results. Only my 7x64 does not have one.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Feb 04, 2024, 11:55 AMSome people like to spend money to chase their particular rabbit down its hole. My gut feel is that 90 percent of the money spent on fancy reloading gear achieves nothing meaningful in the hands of its spenders that basic gear couldn't achieve.
When you are competing in FClass open at World Class level you cannot afford to ignore anything.
I do not know if anyone has reached that level - and prepared to take that chance - using "basic-gear"
I would be very interested to see someone compete AND win at this level with - "basic gear"
I hope someone tries ....
Quote from: Againstthegrains on Feb 03, 2024, 11:08 PMI think with reloading, once you do the basics right, and get your groups down to certain size, it get statistically more difficult to prove that something does actually make a difference.
If you do some basic power/sample size calculations, you will find out that you need to shoot a hell of a lot of bullets to prove that there is 10% improvement in group size.
IF you like stats / math / formulas
Have you had a look at Keith Glasscock's channel ?
See below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ4TteX4QGM
I think the guy uses very heavy maths / stats in his day time job
The first Lee collet die I got was for .308 and I was sufficiently pleased with it that I now also use them for .223, .303 and 7x64 (280 Rem).
At my skill level and accuracy requirements (I don't bother to develop the laods any more once I reach 1 MOA) the ammo is just as good as ammo loaded with any other dies I have used including RCBS, Hornady, Redding and Lee FL dies.
For me the 2 biggest advantages are that I don't need to use lube and I believe they give increased case life.
My PMP 308 cases are currently on their 13th firing and I haven't lost a single one yet due to case/head separation or split necks. I full length size after 5-6 firings and I annealed after the 12th firing. Other calibres I haven't yet loaded cases that many times with the collet dies.
Although I read somewhere that one shouldn't use them in a press that "cams over", I set them up so that the press just cams over because I feel like I get more consistency that way.
When I first got the 308 die I had to strip it and polish the internals slightly followed by a touch of grease because it had a tendency to stick. Haven't needed to do that with the others, but maybe that was because I bought them 2nd hand & the previous owners had already done the same or used them enough to wear them in.
The overwhelming majority of reloaders don't shoot well enough to detect, much less identify the source of a 0.05 improvement in consistency which can be a winnig margin at the top of some disciplines. I'd guess that the people who can make up a couple percent of the total at best.
Like in any contest of skill there are people who chase results with their wallets. You see it in everything from fat guys spending hundreds of thousands of rands on carbon fibre components to save 25kg of weight on their Lotus 7 style clubman racers and consistently finish in the bottom 20% of the pack or the SADPA shooter who arrives at a club match with more money in guns and gear than the winners car and finishes last.
There's nothing wrong with it and more strength to the elbows of those who have the means and get their kicks from having the latest and greatest gadgetry to go with their hobby. A real benefit to punters like me is that it provides a reliable source of high quality second hand gear as the industry continuously rolls out silver bullet solution that the silver bulleteers find irresistible.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Feb 05, 2024, 06:52 AMA real benefit to punters like me is that it provides a reliable source of high quality second hand gear as the industry continuously rolls out silver bullet solution that the silver bulleteers find irresistible.
Care to disclose where one can find these ?
I would also like to benefit from the - irresistibility of the "silver bulleteers"
PS ;
I have a LEE 30-06 collet neck die which works fine for my 300WM modification
Sizes the full neck length of 9mm