I've got about 300 rounds through a target rifle. After every session, I would alternate nylon bushes with Boretech Eliminator and Ballistol, patching till clean, and repeat three times.
This rifle shoots a particular monolithic very well, and I wanted to understand why.
So I did a sulphur cast of the muzzle area, and measured groove diameter. According to that the bore is so far out of spec it should have been scrapped.
I then used a soft lead plug tapped about three inches into the muzzle, then tapped out. I got he same measurement.
I repeated the lead slug from the muzzle, this time all the way to the chamber. The slug was tight to about one third of the barrel length from the muzzle, then suddenly it became loose and pushed through much easier to the chamber. That means I was measuring buildup in the barrel grooves, not groove size.
Wet patches of Boretech, leaving it in the barrel for hours, but the dry patches came out clean. The borescope was showing a shiny inside, which on closer inspection and more with thought started looking like polished carbon buildup.
Youtube showed one referral to UltimateReloader using penetrating oil with success. I drove down the hardware and picked up a tin of Q5.
I have a lot of nylon brushes, and only one very old bronze brush that fits my caliber. Using Q5 and a nylon brush made the first patch go black, but subsequent passes with Q5 and the nylon brush didn't do much. I then used the Q5 and the bronze brush. Jackpot. Every clean with the bronze brush freed up enough carbon to produce pitch black patches that looked like they were dabbed with soot.
I just ordered bronze brushes for my target rifles. I won't use nylon brushes to clean carbon again. And I want another tin of Q5.
I had a similar experience, even though it was not as scientific as yours.
I received the old 303 and cleaned it properly, then left it in the safe with an oiled barrel. (The chances are good that the rifle wasn't fired for +-50 years!).
When I got to the range some weeks later I pushed a patch through it to remove the oil, and it came out black as sin. The third patch was clean enough that I started shooting. Maybe I need some Q5 as well.
I've also had limited success with nylon brushes. Luckily I haven't needed anything more expensive than my home brew South Africanised Ed's Red for carbon buildup in any of my guns yet. It's equal parts paraffin, turps, acetone and ATF. I add a bit of lanolin grease to the bottle I use for general cleaning as a rust preventative.
I never quite understood why shooters have this aversion to using bronze brushes.
It works much faster and better than nylon or patches.
Quote from: janfred on Jul 12, 2022, 11:43 AMI never quite understood why shooters have this aversion to using bronze brushes.
It works much faster and better than nylon or patches.
Same here. If you can blast a copper alloy jacketed bullet down a tube designed for that purpose what damage could dragging a lubricated bronze brush down the same tube?
Quote from: janfred on Jul 12, 2022, 11:43 AMI never quite understood why shooters have this aversion to using bronze brushes.
It works much faster and better than nylon or patches.
*********************************
I too have only just recently started using bronze brushes again, and at that only every 5-6 th cleaning. I do not know the reason, but I have a aversion to the bronze brushes, likely unfounded.
When one has a bad barrel like mentioned, a bronze or copper pot scourer wrapped around a bronze brush is the answer, just test the pot scourer with a magnet and buy the more costly version from a better shop - the kind that sells high end pots and pans.
Warm the barrel by blowing a hair dryer through it till its hot to touch and then pour some hot as can be made safely ATF down barrel slowly with end plugged (careful now). The hot ATF just seems to get "in there" better.Then scrub.
People shake their heads when I tackle a problem barrel. I tend to get a bit silly, but so far it works. I use Bicarb, Coke, ATF, Peroxide, Ammonia, Citrus soap, brake cleaner, acetone and mineral turps and some things I have forgotten. I wash barrel with acetone or benzine between each attempt so that next attack is not dulled by oil from previous attack. I do all the different approaches because I think each one is another angle of attack and does its bit, the carbon is not just carbon,its a few other minerals, chemicals and metals which each need their own silver bullet. Refreshed applications of Coke can be left in barrel for long, peroxide, ammonia not so long and must be cleaned out properly. ATF - Eds Red and Mineral Turps over night is good. Biodiesel is also a very good cleaner and soaker. All items mentioned if used with correct cautions have their place in my arsonal, all are used interspersed with the use of commercial products, and all in all it sometimes takes days to get a barrel cleaned. I honestly thought I may be ruining my 1918 .303 Brit barrel, I scrubbed and swabbed it for days before some marks and thingees in the barrel were gone, it went from hitting a A4 page group to a quarter inch group shooter with some stock work included.
I think that the advocates of nylon brushes never had to get a barrel clean, or else they don't have a borescope to see what a kak job nylon brushes actually do.
A nylon brush is good for coating the bore with copper remover and such chemicals that would affect a bronze brush.
I have read or heard somewhere that the notion/aversion against bronze brushes is because folks believe that it would scratch the barrel.
Phosphor-bronze is believed to be harder than steel because it is used in cutting diamonds. This means that people don't understand the process of cutting diamonds.
Saying a bronze brush hurts the barrel is like saying you can take a hack-saw blade made from copper and hand-cut a mild steel bar with it.
Yes, they use bronze to cut diamond, but you can also use water to cut steel. Doesn't mean getting the barrel wet is going to melt it.
Quote from: 414gates on Jul 13, 2022, 08:25 AMSaying a bronze brush hurts the barrel is like saying you can take a hack-saw blade made from copper and hand-cut a mild steel bar with it.
Yes, they use bronze to cut diamond, but you can also use water to cut steel. Doesn't mean getting the barrel wet is going to melt it.
I think they mistake the 'carrier' or 'matrix' for the abrasive in those analogies.
Not sure where that myth started.
The hardest phosphor-bronze at 85 Rockwell C (3 Rockwell B) is softer than the softest barrel steel at 102 Rockwell C (25 Rockwell B).
https://www.chemistrylearner.com/phosphor-bronze.html
https://www.nrafamily.org/content/what-is-the-best-gun-barrel-material/
https://pgisteel.com/hardness-conversion-chart/
Bronze has been specifically selected as it is harder than gilding metal and copper but softer than steel. The idea is to be able to mechanically remove the lead, copper and carbon from barrels without scratching the steel.
I have often wondered - If I were to freeze a barrel, will the different materials in barrel not come off due to the different shrink, contraction rates. Many glues just separate if frozen and many joints come loose, so ????
Interesting idea. Steam is one of the methods to remove carbon buildup off metal, the metal expands more than the carbon, so it breaks the adhesion.
Quote from: 414gates on Jul 13, 2022, 01:45 PMInteresting idea. Steam is one of the methods to remove carbon buildup off metal, the metal expands more than the carbon, so it breaks the adhesion.
**********************
Yes same idea.
If you ever need to use a grid and yours is not around, but you find a old scrappy one lying somewhere or the camp site provided horror. Put that grid in the fire and glow it then dump it in a pond or stream, what ever. Every thing other than the bare metal just jumps of the bare metal, rust especially. When you do it in a bird bath or cement water retainer it is absolutely amazing to see the pile of crud that sinks to the bottom.
Hence the method of pouring boiling water down the 303 rifles used for target shooting. The only problem is that with modern muti it tends to make it change due to some chemical reaction. I have seen this with Forrester Bore Foam.
The boiling water down the .303 is to wash out the salt from shooting army ammo.
Tried it with my 308 and does not make any difference that I can see.
When I was a sleg troep goofing off from basics I used to be left to my own devices for longish periods during the day. Used the time to make a bit of cash cleaning other guys rifles. My method was to stand them barrel up with bipods resting on the wall below the shower heads and running scalding hot water over them for 10 minutes or so. I had adjusted the one geyser's thermostat to full speed ahead so the water was really hot. It did a remarkably good job of cleaning and degreasing. Anything that remained was easily sorted with a squirt of Preen and another session in the shower followed by a couple of pulls through with the bore brush. The lekker thing was that after a few minutes under the hot water they would be hot enough that they'd be bone dry within a minute or two.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Jul 14, 2022, 10:12 AMWhen I was a sleg troep ......................y'd be bone dry within a minute or two.
************************
Did same - oven cleaner and boiling water.
Picture of penetrating sprays I'm using. Q5 and Spanjaard. The Q5 contains graphite, you can see grey on a clean patch on the left. Middle patches are what's coming off the bore. Second patch from right is from today, day 3.penetrating-spray-s.jpgday-1-s.jpg
Second pic shows work in progress on day 1.
What few realise is that the black isn't just carbon, it also contains cellulose. Cellulose is a plastic that acts as a good binder come heat and cold.
Any good bore cleaner should contain a solvent that softens cellulose. More commonly known as nitro solvent.
I always wondered what the little bottle of red stuff was for. Nitrocellulose.
I consolidated several small containers into one, thinking to mix it in with my Ed's Red.
Would thinners or acetone not be fine as a nitro solvent ?
That why when I get a bad barrel I use all those things I listed - for a multi facet attack.
Quote from: Treeman on Jul 21, 2022, 05:31 PMWould thinners or acetone not be fine as a nitro solvent ?
That why when I get a bad barrel I use all those things I listed - for a multi facet attack.
Acetone is a part of the original Ed's Red formula and was included for exactly that reason you cite. This article (https://www.vkhgc.ca/documents/Ed%20gun%20cleaner.pdf) is informative, to me at least. According to another article I can't find right now the "gum spirits of turpentine" and "aliphatic mineral spirits" mentioned in this one are functionally replaced by our hardware store turps.
*edit* 'kerosene' is our paraffin
Try use biodiesel on your hands some day - amazing cleaner.
Now change to biodiesel in your vehicle and see how fast it blocks your filters !!!!! No, it cleans the shit out everywhere in the motor and tank and that blocks the filters.
So there are two types of build up in a barrel, copper and carbon. Both have a different chemistry. There are good products on the market for copper removal. Carbon removal requires a totally different chemistry. To give you a hint at works best for carbon, look at the ingredients found in most grill and oven cleaning products. The two main types of ingredient are a high pH, usually sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) coupled with a strong detergent. The detergent is there mainly to dissolve fat. A friend of mine cleans his barrels with braai cleaner and they seem fine.
I suspect that gun cleaning and lubing products are to men what cosmeceuticals are to women. Some like to buy the most expensive ones with the highest magic power claims that they can. I'm extremely doubtful that many, if any, of the 'tier 1' cleaning concoctions work much better than Eds Red except in terms of copper removal. Similarly I doubt that there's much of a benefit to be had spending thousands a litre on lubricants over a 50/50 mix of ATF and paraffin for oiling or lanolin grease for rails and such.
I may be completely wrong but in nearly thirty years of using them exclusively on all my guns I haven't encountered an issue.
I would be very careful with coke. It contains phosphoric acid (about 10%). While it definitely cleans pretty well, I would not want such an aggressive acid in my barrel. Neither would I drink it, but that is a different topic.
Quote from: 223 on Dec 21, 2023, 09:56 PMI would be very careful with coke. It contains phosphoric acid (about 10%). While it definitely cleans pretty well, I would not want such an aggressive acid in my barrel. Neither would I drink it, but that is a different topic.
***********************
Surely not 10% ? I do not know, but youch, that sound blerry high.
Looked it up.
Cola drinks have a phosphoric acid content that is described as "from 0.057 to 0.084% of 75% phosphoric acid, by mass."
The main thing the graphic ignores here is the issue of concentration; the concentration of phosphoric acid in coke is very low (around 0.055%).
Still poison regardless of above, Coke is baaad stuff.
I am a great lover of my own made almost everything firearm cosmetics.
ATF is a incredible cleaner.
The German break part lubricant is unbeatable.
Carb cleaner just cleans shit.
Car engine oil is an incredible lubricant.
Not many things have had the billions R&D poured into as lubricants for cars.
Mineral turps - AtF - Can of castrol GTX or fully synthetic, some lithium grease, all leftovers everyone has, you can never buy GUN label stuff again.
Between the Horse riding shop and a carpentry supply store you have all you need in bulk form for your stock and straps and some metal care as well.
Before you go hunt next time, try using a good car polish on your metal parts - again, millions put into research.
Take a metal road in the meantime, sand it clean and car polish one side properly , leave it outside for a while, pick it up and handle a few times . see how well the polish protects.
As much as I like a good DIY mix, take a dive into Google and read up a bit about "contact dermatitis"
Quote from: Treeman on Dec 21, 2023, 10:58 PMI am a great lover of my own made almost everything firearm cosmetics.
ATF is a incredible cleaner.
The German break part lubricant is unbeatable.
Carb cleaner just cleans shit.
Car engine oil is an incredible lubricant.
Not many things have had the billions R&D poured into as lubricants for cars.
I been using ATF in place of gun oil for a couple decades now. I tried it because I got a look inside an old gearbox once. All the metal surfaces were spotless.
After I tried it, I was impressed by the fact that after application, wiping it dry leaves a film that protects gun metal in a safe for a relatively long time.
Carb cleaner is useful for cleaning crud off metal parts, but I don't use it because of the gas it emits. And I use ultrasonic to clean suppressors and brakes. In a diesel bath. I should try it with ATF now that diesel costs as much.
ATF - Engine oil - Mineral Turps. With a varying % mix you can do almost anything you buy, ATF and W40 oil 50/50 for not sure parts. ATF 30/70% W40 oil for bolts. Mix your own 3 in one penetrating for pivot pins and metal to metal move parts like the safety rod using mineral turps and W40 motor oil, thin it down to what u want using the turps.
I have played with oil and paraffin, diesel and molyslip.
I once mixed up something using break fluid as the base for cleaning and it worked sooooooo well, but I must have remembered something wrong, because everytime I mixed it afterwards the parts separated. Try as I will I have not been able to make it again,
I also made a brilliant stock wax using oils and beeswax, I kept one of the lead up too recipes and threw away the winner mix it appears. I have enough for my life time though. It was beeswax mainly, artist turps(from trees), teak oil and lanolin. The way it was mixed is what was hard to get right, I remember finding all ingredients were at same temperature to work/mix correct. It was also important, but I can not recall which it was, but mixing while cooling or mixing and not mixing further while cooling made a difference.
If I ever make a wx again I will blender it while it cools, I think the aeration will make for better product.
LASTLY _ I will remember that I will not remember and write everything down.
Quote from: janfred on Jul 12, 2022, 11:43 AMI never quite understood why shooters have this aversion to using bronze brushes.
It works much faster and better than nylon or patches.
As a matter of interest do you use the brush in one direction only from chamber to crown and unscrew?
No. I push through all the way then pull back all the way. Repeat that for every 3 rounds fired. For all the years I've done that, I have not once seen any damage on the crown. And yes, I have a bore scope and use it regularly to check the barrel and crown.