Waarmee het ons grootjies gejag?

[Ds J]

Goeiemôre, ek stoei al lankal met n vraag en kon nog nie n behoorlike antwoord kry nie. Met watter ammunisie het ons oumense gejag na 1902? Tweedens: hoe was dit moontlik dat die oumense so akkuraat geskiet het?

Ek vermoed dat die meeste mense 303's gebruik het, en militêre ammunisie. Die gevolg was dat almal met presies dieselfde trajek gewerk het, en daarom kon almal presies sê waar om te korrel.

---

Two questions: which rifles and cartridges were used after 1902 for hunting in SA? And how did he old folks obtain such exceptional accuracy?

I suspect that they mostly used 303's with milsurp, which means that "everyone" knew the trajectory.

[oafpatroll]

My Afrikaans is net net good genoeg vir self verdediging so my antwoord gaan in Brits wees.
I don't know fod sure what rifles were around but as you say I'd expect there were a lot of 303s.

As to the accuracy I expect that it was at least in part due to scarcity. People had to take care of the little bit of ammo they could afford to buy and consequently became better shots. There was a very elderly bywoner on a family farm when I was a kid and he paid his way by shooting for the pot. All his shooting was done with a handful of cases that he reloaded with a Lee Loader. According to my uncle who knew him well he rarely if ever wounded an animal.

[223]

My Oupa het na SA ge-migreer in 1929.  Hy het 'n dubbelloop haelgeweer, 'n enkelskoot .22 en 'n Mauser WTP1 6.35mm pistool saamgebring.

Ek het met die 2 gewere my eerste skote geskiet.
Die haelgeweer is in my besit, maar ongelukkig nie in 'n goeie toestand nie.
Die .22 het my oorlede Pa laat vernietig in 2004 omdat die loop 2 knoppe in gehad het en die geweer basies onherstelbaar was.
Die Mauser pistool het my Pa vir 'n handelaar wat die goed verstaan geskenk en is hopelik nou in 'n versamelaar se besit.

Hierdie 3 wapens het in my Oupa se besit gebly deur die 2de WO.  Gelukkig was daar destyds geen amptelike rekords van wapeneienaars nie, dus is die Smuts regering se konfiskeringsplanne nie te suksesvol uitgevoer nie.  Nie almal was so gelukkig nie.  My Pa en ooms het die .22 patrone tussen die grasdak se halms ingedruk om hulle weg te steek tydens die oorlog.

Ammunisie was skaars en duur, dus was daar nie patrone om te mors nie.  Elke patroon moes iets eetbaars huistoe bring. 

Die 303's wat in siviele besit was, was waarskynlik die wat die Unie Verdedigingsmagte en die SA Weermag aan hulle lede verkoop het.  Ek vermoed die meeste daarvan is eers verkoop nadat die R1 gewere (FN-FAL) die standaard weermag wapen geword het in die laat sestigerjare.  My eie 303 het ek in die vroë 90's gekry vir R38.51. Ek kan nie meer onthou wat die 500 VM patrone gekos het nie, maar dit was redelik min.  Voltydse en deeltydse weermaglede kon elke jaar 500 patrone koop as hulle 'n lisensie kon toon.

[Ds J]

My oupa het vertel dat my oupagrootjie n blesbok in die hardloop geskiet het met hulle 303 met oop visiere. Dit moes êrens in die 1930's gewees het, want hy was op hoërskool gewees.

In die 1950's en 1960's het my pa en sy broers die blesbokke met n .22 Remington "saloon" geskiet.

[Ds J]

I just had feedback from an acquaintance- 6.5mm Mausers were circulating shortly after 1902.

[Treeman]

Goeiemôre, ek stoei al lankal met n vraag en kon nog nie n behoorlike antwoord kry nie. Met watter ammunisie het ons oumense gejag na 1902? Tweedens: hoe was dit moontlik dat die oumense so akkuraat geskiet het?

Ek vermoed dat die meeste mense 303's gebruik het, en militêre ammunisie. Die gevolg was dat almal met presies dieselfde trajek gewerk het, en daarom kon almal presies sê waar om te korrel.

---

Two questions: which rifles and cartridges were used after 1902 for hunting in SA? And how did he old folks obtain such exceptional accuracy?

I suspect that they mostly used 303's with milsurp, which means that "everyone" knew the trajectory.
*****************************
Lets get one thing absolutely straight.
ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT!
The old people were not that accurate, but only accurate shots were remembered. The rifles in general were not that accurate, nor were the bullet types and manufacture. I have shot many of the old guns and many of the old .303's, and I have to date not found ONe that was a clover leaf weapon without much work being put into it.
300 m ? - More like 300 months ago if I remember correctly, my oupa told me that his oupa shot a springbuck at "fkn ver" - How far is "fkn ver?" likely 150 -200 m. Next generation = the old folk could shoot 200 m or 300 m, next generation + a few drinks, "ag man 300 -  400 m was everday stuff, the old folk could shoot.
The ammunition was one load fits all barrels .311 -.312 - .313 - made likely by one company.
The barrels were mostly made on machines that ranged from pretty dam good for the 1900's to just plain worn out.
The wood? I doubt all we know about wood fit was even known, nor how to fix it and these things were even less known by the user. Rifles spent days in the sun on a wagon seat or saddle,got wet when it rained and dry when the sun shone.
 
Other than exceptional persons - weapons, a 5 inch group was good to go. Cival war snipers were considered snipers and so were their rifles if they could hit a 24 inch square target at 200 yards, about 190 m

No sir, the old folk were not that accurate, their rifles generally were not up to it.

[Treeman]

9.3x57 and 62 - various 6.5 mm  - 7x57 - 303 - the Snider and Martini Hendry were still very much in use as were many of the # 2,# 4 type muskets.
The Nitro Express and 416 - 375 were just a moment in time away with 1907 to 1915 +/- being the rough times of invention.

[Treeman]

found this
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Table_of_handgun_and_rifle_cartridges_by_year

[223]

I just had feedback from an acquaintance- 6.5mm Mausers were circulating shortly after 1902.

The 6,5x58 Portuguese rifles, which were and still are erroneously referred to as Mausers, became available around the first world war.  They were introduced around 1906 and only got to SA somewhat later.  The Union Defense Force under Smuts and Botha used them on their campaign to suppress the rebellion.

Other 6,5mm rifles, like the 6,5x54mm Mannlicher Schönauer made famous by Karamojo Bell, were pretty scarce around Southern Africa.

[oafpatroll]

While I doubt there were a lot of them there were extremely accurate rifles and shooters around at the turn of the century. Harry Pope from the USA being an example. He built his rifles and cast bullets of his own design and pulled off some shots in Schuetzen competition that almost defy belief.   

[Ds J]

Regarding the accuracy: my grandpa shot a 3 MOA grouping at 100m with his SMLE over open sights. I personally witnessed it, and he was out of practice at 70+ years of age.

Grandma did less than 2MOA with the same rifle on the same day

Some of those old folks could really shoot, simply because their lives depended on it.

[Treeman]

Regarding the accuracy: my grandpa shot a 3 MOA grouping at 100m with his SMLE over open sights. I personally witnessed it, and he was out of practice at 70+ years of age.

Grandma did less than 2MOA with the same rifle on the same day

Some of those old folks could really shoot, simply because their lives depended on it.
**********************
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!! does not matter what depends on it or how good a shooter you are, if the rifle throws randomly a world champ will still get random results.
That said, I remember my oupa, Johannes Petrus Ferdinand van Greunin also at about 70 yrs old shooting pellet gun and .22 stupid accurate, but again, only measured in "hit" or "miss"
Did not know any of the old folk to shoot groups, only hit or miss.

[Ds J]

With a hit being a bull's eye, and everything else being a miss?   

[Treeman]

With a hit being a bull's eye, and everything else being a miss?   

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As hy val is dit "kol skoot"

[janfred]

Yeah. None of them talked about the kwes skote. You shoot the front legs off they still fall.

Let's not forget the through shots with FMJ bullets. There was a time that you weren't allowed to hunt on a lot of farms with .303 because of that.