I bought a few hundred of these to try out, first thing I noted when I started reloading them was the crazy array of base finish's. The coating has pooled at the base of almost every bullet causing bumps, shapes and patterns, I will be greatly surprised if I get any consistency with these bullets.
With this array of base shapes I am expecting a similar array of POI, the base of a bullet is super important for accuracy.
Quote from: Treeman on Nov 29, 2022, 10:54 PMI bought a few hundred of these to try out, first thing I noted when I started reloading them was the crazy array of base finish's. The coating has pooled at the base of almost every bullet causing bumps, shapes and patterns, I will be greatly surprised if I get any consistency with these bullets.
With this array of base shapes I am expecting a similar array of POI, the base of a bullet is super important for accuracy.
I find it much more time consuming to powder coat rifle than pistol. 2 or three times at least. The standard of finish and consistency required takes a lot more time and work to achieve.
Can someone explain to me.
I had to bell the case mouth to load cast bullets, but now when seating the bullet there is still some bell left on the case. I have set seating die down to touch the ram, but the bell on the case mouth is still visible.
Quote from: Treeman on Dec 01, 2022, 08:55 PMCan someone explain to me.
I had to bell the case mouth to load cast bullets, but now when seating the bullet there is still some bell left on the case. I have set seating die down to touch the ram, but the bell on the case mouth is still visible.
What happens when you put an empty, belled case through the same die? It is supposed to crimp, or not? Maybe some internal adjustment?
Do you not have a Lee Collet Crimping die? That will easily fix the mouth so that it will chamber easily.
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Dec 02, 2022, 02:17 PMDo you not have a Lee Collet Crimping die? That will easily fix the mouth so that it will chamber easily.
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I just may have one of these !
I tried 4 loads today - "fokkit dus lelik" - fkn everywhere + some where else on page!!!! AT 50 m
Quote from: Treeman on Dec 02, 2022, 08:39 PMQuote from: Tripodmvr on Dec 02, 2022, 02:17 PMDo you not have a Lee Collet Crimping die? That will easily fix the mouth so that it will chamber easily.
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I just may have one of these !
I tried 4 loads today - "fokkit dus lelik" - fkn everywhere + some where else on page!!!! AT 50 m
This is pretty normal for ma ;D ;D
Quote from: Ds J on Dec 02, 2022, 09:16 PMQuote from: Treeman on Dec 02, 2022, 08:39 PMQuote from: Tripodmvr on Dec 02, 2022, 02:17 PMDo you not have a Lee Collet Crimping die? That will easily fix the mouth so that it will chamber easily.
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I just may have one of these !
I tried 4 loads today - "fokkit dus lelik" - fkn everywhere + some where else on page!!!! AT 50 m
This is pretty normal for ma ;D ;D
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Huh ?
Just kidding, and joking with my own
Quote from: Treeman on Dec 02, 2022, 09:18 PMQuote from: Ds J on Dec 02, 2022, 09:16 PMQuote from: Treeman on Dec 02, 2022, 08:39 PMQuote from: Tripodmvr on Dec 02, 2022, 02:17 PMDo you not have a Lee Collet Crimping die? That will easily fix the mouth so that it will chamber easily.
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I just may have one of these !
I tried 4 loads today - "fokkit dus lelik" - fkn everywhere + some where else on page!!!! AT 50 m
This is pretty normal for me ;D ;D
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Huh ?
Spelling mistake.
I was joking with my own bad shooting days.
Ok !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is bad, very bad.
55 gr V Max 4 bullets touching holes at 50 m
65 gr Siera 3 bullets clover leaf
62 gr Silver Rapids PolyCoated 8 shots 2 on page ?
I have no idea what is going on, last load were hand size groups with the odd missing bullet, now its find the holes. The bullets are at about 2600 fps, they not stripping because there is no fouling. WTF is going on ?
It is so bad I honestly just feel they do not work in this rifle at all, but really like not at all.
Running too slow might be the problem. Give me some figures to work with and let QL do some magic.
What velocity are they supposed to be good to?
Quote from: oafpatroll on Dec 06, 2022, 09:28 AMWhat velocity are they supposed to be good to?
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2700 fps - I just know its not my reloading, something else wrong here, 1 in 8 twist ?
Do you have a silencer fitted?
Yes I do
Shoot without it please. Many inaccuracies are blamed on loads when it is in fact the bullet touching the silencer.
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Dec 08, 2022, 08:08 AMShoot without it please. Many inaccuracies are blamed on loads when it is in fact the bullet touching the silencer.
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any reason the lead bullet would touch and nothing else does ?
There is no harm in trying and seeing if there is an improvement. A rifle that normally shoots well should not scatter them like a shotgun.
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Dec 08, 2022, 10:06 PMThere is no harm in trying and seeing if there is an improvement. A rifle that normally shoots well should not scatter them like a shotgun.
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Oh ! totally agree, I just thought that you had some info on lead bullets and silencers or something. I will try it, but I suspect their velocity claims are ambitious.
I am also very dubious of the bullet bases - the base is very critical in regard to accuracy.
Quote from: Treeman on Dec 09, 2022, 10:47 AMI will try it, but I suspect their velocity claims are ambitious.
I am also very dubious of the bullet bases - the base is very critical in regard to accuracy.
I don't know what the composition of the coating is but if it's properties are anything at all like powdercoat I'd tend to agree.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Dec 09, 2022, 11:44 AMQuote from: Treeman on Dec 09, 2022, 10:47 AMI will try it, but I suspect their velocity claims are ambitious.
I am also very dubious of the bullet bases - the base is very critical in regard to accuracy.
I don't know what the composition of the coating is but if it's properties are anything at all like powdercoat I'd tend to agree.
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I had a long chat with the owner of Silver Rapids today - Gavin, what a nice man, honest, honest enough to say somethings that were not promoting his product, just true - the guy seems to have a thing about straight talk.
The bullets are at the moment more for the SLR guys, 2 MOA at a 100 m stuff.
The goal is to do a one MOA bullet, but they are not there yet or are they? After much chatting Gavin told me of various rifles that produced touching hole results and the reasons they found behind the rifles that were inaccurate.
It seems that hard cases altered the bullet diameters by quiet a bit, particularly previously fired PMP cases which were swageing the lead bullet to below usable diameter. Interesting ?
He also spoke of a new propriety type of coating originating on the shuttle and F1 cars that has a fiber inter poly makeup which they are hoping will get the bullets into the 3000 fps ability zone.
So for now I will work with the info and checks he gave me to see if I can get to the 1 MOA at 50 m and then work from there.
They are also looking at running a second strike, swageing stage to perhaps get the bullet more capable of copper coated accuracy.
My best .270 cast and powdercoated load is every bit as accurate as the best I achieved with jacketed bullets just at approx 70% of the velocity.
I will be loading these to about 2500 fps for another test, I also annealed all the cases - a bit over annealed perhaps.
Would hitting a bullet with a hammer simulate impact ? I am told these bullets are very hard, I wish to test this.
Shoot them into water soaked magazines.
Smashing the bullets with a hammer is a good way to test how well the coating bonds. Doubt if it's meaningful as a test of what the bullet would do on impact though. I once made a few newspaper targets similar to what Tripodmvr describes. Stuffed rolled newspapers into HTH buckets till I couldn't fit any more in and then topped off with water. Shot them with my Svarog 12G slugs to test their efficacy.
I collect last years telephone books for this purpose. I now go to printing shops as well and get the side off cuts.
This works for penetration and deformation/expansion. I used the hammer to see if the bullet shatters, crumbles or breaks up.
Tree, when you going to do battle with those red bullets again? I want to try get our .303 ready and right. Call me.
I give up, not even going to try any more. I can not get these bullets to group, I have shot about 80 shots of 4 shot groups, nothing works or even starts leaning towards a receipt.
I forgot to try shoot with out a silencer - that is all it can be now, there is nothing - fokkallee, else it can be.
Must must be touching the silencer - what else.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52596091166_e90f70f39c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o8JHu3)20221230_190904 (https://flic.kr/p/2o8JHu3) by Cody Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/196777865@N04/), on Flickr
The numbers are the string group, so the 2 and other 2 - 3 and 3 were all shot as four shots group 3 and so forth.
I had to enlarge usable page to find some holes, hence the new unshot background sheet.
This is at 50 m
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52596091121_3b476aee86_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o8JHtg)20221230_190949 (https://flic.kr/p/2o8JHtg) by Cody Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/196777865@N04/), on Flickr
What the *&^%&^%^&% to do, I want them to work.
Did you measure speed?
not with me now, but yes a few time 2400 - 2600 was in the test range. I think the last batch was even slower, but had no chroni as was on farm not range
Have you tried the same cartridges in another rifle? It would indicate whether the rifle is to blame.
Rifle at this moment shoots between 10 mm and 20 mm group with 5 other reloads from Mono to V Max. The problem is the bullet rifle combo, I forgot to shoot without a silencer, as you suggested - I really believe that for some reason these bullets are touching the baffles - nothing else I know of can cause such extreme flyers.
Problem is, I am so used to shooting with a silencer, it just never occured to me to remove it, even when I knew to test it. I will give this one more try, I will also leave silencer with note on it " do not use next testing"
loving this Treeman, your frustration is of great amusement to me ;D
What was it you said to me (6 beers later) - "I can make anything accurate, just need some time"
Gonna send Sliver Rapids a box a chocolates.
By the way, you looked a bit pale while telling the story ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
From my own, very limited, experience:
I cast some bullets from a modified Lee .225" 55gn mould using 2 different alloys.
The alloys were straight Linotype and 50/50 Linotype and wheel weights. Both are pretty hard.
The mould was modified by reaming out the gas check rebate and the lube groove. This was done in an attempt to increase the bearing surface.
PC was applied by dry shake-and-bake method to get the best finish.
Bullets were pushed through a .224" Lee sizer die.
I shot them from my trusty Zastava M85 rifle with 1:12" twist. Powder was S335.
At around 2500fps I had trouble keeping them on paper at 30m.
Reduced speed to around 2000 and 1500 fps with same results. Speeds are estimated, I did not want to risk my chrony before I know they are coming out in the right direction.
At 10gn of S335 the groups tightened significantly (+/- 2" at 30m), but I would not want to make a 22LR out of my 223, so this load was not deemed worth measuring the MV of.
My conclusion from the tests is that my PC is way too thin, or the bullets are too small, or both, and they are stripping, or misbehaving in another way, in the rifling.
I will first try to make the PC thicker and size the bullets to .225".
Just a note on suppressor use with this type of bullet: If the bases of the bullets are not perfectly formed, they can easily yaw a little when exiting the muzzle. This yawing could be enough to let the bullets touch the baffles in the suppressor, causing wild flyers on (or off) target.
While you are at it, test the other loads (50gr, 55gr etc) without the silencer.
Quote from: 223 on Dec 31, 2022, 09:54 PMFrom my own, very limited, experience:
I cast some bullets from a modified Lee .225" 55gn mould using 2 different alloys.
The alloys were straight Linotype and 50/50 Linotype and wheel weights. Both are pretty hard.
The mould was modified by reaming out the gas check rebate and the lube groove. This was done in an attempt to increase the bearing surface.
PC was applied by dry shake-and-bake method to get the best finish.
Bullets were pushed through a .224" Lee sizer die.
I shot them from my trusty Zastava M85 rifle with 1:12" twist. Powder was S335.
At around 2500fps I had trouble keeping them on paper at 30m.
Reduced speed to around 2000 and 1500 fps with same results. Speeds are estimated, I did not want to risk my chrony before I know they are coming out in the right direction.
At 10gn of S335 the groups tightened significantly (+/- 2" at 30m), but I would not want to make a 22LR out of my 223, so this load was not deemed worth measuring the MV of.
My conclusion from the tests is that my PC is way too thin, or the bullets are too small, or both, and they are stripping, or misbehaving in another way, in the rifling.
I will first try to make the PC thicker and size the bullets to .225".
Just a note on suppressor use with this type of bullet: If the bases of the bullets are not perfectly formed, they can easily yaw a little when exiting the muzzle. This yawing could be enough to let the bullets touch the baffles in the suppressor, causing wild flyers on (or off) target.
Your post is valued, I think we thinking same line of thought, see OP regarding bases of bullets and then latest posts regarding silencer.
Thank you for input.
Quote from: Ds J on Jan 01, 2023, 10:42 AMWhile you are at it, test the other loads (50gr, 55gr etc) without the silencer.
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Rifle is brilliant with anything else - silencer on or off, usually shoot a bit of other stuff after every test session.
Something else to consider:
These bullets are softer than any metal-jacketed type. I should be a good idea to remove any jacket (copper) fouling from the bore before shooting these, as a little copper fouling could really mess up the softer bullets.
Quote from: 223 on Jan 01, 2023, 09:45 PMSomething else to consider:
These bullets are softer than any metal-jacketed type. I should be a good idea to remove any jacket (copper) fouling from the bore before shooting these, as a little copper fouling could really mess up the softer bullets.
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I am on the look out for a place with a swimming pool I can shoot these into and recover them, my usual spot is 180 km out of town and dunno when I will be in area.
Perhaps I will take a 100 lt drum to one of the closer farms. I want to get some bullets back that have not hit sand and rock etc just clean deformation from water, check the engraving, coating etc
.....................................its the silencer - the bases - I said so in my first post and did not heed self, you are correct I am sure of this.
Shot without silencer.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52605395220_c9b5b1d0ae_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o9ypfL)1 hole (https://flic.kr/p/2o9ypfL) by Cody Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/196777865@N04/), on Flickr
Not even the wrong load does this.
Did you shoot a group with at least 3 shots?
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Jan 03, 2023, 09:06 PMDid you shoot a group with at least 3 shots?
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4 shots - one kept for velocity check if the load worked.
Only one shot on target?
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Jan 04, 2023, 06:59 AMOnly one shot on target?
You can see three more shots off the paper. Two to the right and the last one just off bottom right. All marked with red arrows.
we now on 84 test shots, silencer on - off, COL long - short. 2200 -2540 fps. Annealed cases, once fired cases.
I will do last test shooting into a pool to collect bullets.
1 - 9 twist might be too much for this coating.
Some old wisdom said that cast bullets (with GC) should be kept below 1700fps. I would rate powder coating about as good, so 1700 should be fine. That's what I load my 375 cast GC bullet to.
With S335 you should be able to go to a pretty low load. Use a filler if you need to go below 15 gn (+/- 60% case fill). This applies to S335 only, not any other powder.
Then I have me self a 22 Hornet with a big case ::)