Hi, I will be hunting a blue wildebeest this season in bushveld conditions.
I have the following ammo available at present to choose from:
Norma Oryx 165gr
Sako Gamehead 165gr
Sako Powerhead II 168gr
Sierra gameking 165gr
Federal fusion 165gr
I was considering the Norma Oryx or Sako Powerhead. Will these be suitable?
The other option I was considering is to get Barnes TTSX 150gr.
Of those you list I'd go with Norma Oryx 165 but on the other hand I've got a buddy that swears by Federal Fusion.
If I could expand the options slightly I'd choose Norma Oryx 180 grain as my first option. Personally I like them better than "equivalent" bullets from other manufacturers. It is a relatively "blunt" bullet so stabilises better than many others in a .308 standard 1:12 twist and very easily in a 1:10 twist that eg the 308 Howas come with.
I wouldn't go lighter than 165 grains on Blue Wildebeest in bushveld conditions. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just would prefer not to.
My opinion, I'm sure you will hear other opinions from other members.
Quote from: BBCT on Apr 27, 2023, 09:46 PMOf those you list I'd go with Norma Oryx 165 but on the other hand I've got a buddy that swears by Federal Fusion.
If I could expand the options slightly I'd choose Norma Oryx 180 grain as my first option. Personally I like them better than "equivalent" bullets from other manufacturers. It is a relatively "blunt" bullet so stabilises better than many others in a .308 standard 1:12 twist and very easily in a 1:10 twist that eg the 308 Howas come with.
I wouldn't go lighter than 165 grains on Blue Wildebeest in bushveld conditions. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just would prefer not to.
My opinion, I'm sure you will hear other opinions from other members.
Thank you. I used the Norma last season and it worked well in my Howa.
Have a look at the 180gr Oryx performance in a wetpack. The 165gr should perform on par with the 180gr as speed will be up a bit. That is a big mushroom, adequate penetration and the bullet held together.
https://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?65032-Bullet-performance-data-base/page90
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Apr 28, 2023, 10:52 AMHave a look at the 180gr Oryx performance in a wetpack. The 165gr should perform on par with the 180gr as speed will be up a bit. That is a big mushroom, adequate penetration and the bullet held together.
https://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?65032-Bullet-performance-data-base/page90
Thanks, I had a look at the thread. I seen the comparison between the ammo he tested, very informative.
I am leaning towards the Oryx as I had success with it last year.
I would not fault any of the mentioned ammunition, nor would I chop and change my ammo - one rifle, one bullet type, weight - use it. For the.308, use a 165 or 168 gr bullet of of reasonable construction and learn it well, know where it shoots and you will kill Eland to Duiker with correct shot placement.
I do not like premium bullets for the .308 because they tend to be too tough for .308 velocities. I actually question even bonded bullets of 168 gr being used in the .308
Quote from: Treeman on May 01, 2023, 12:48 PMI would not fault any of the mentioned ammunition, nor would I chop and change my ammo - one rifle, one bullet type, weight - use it. For the.308, use a 165 or 168 gr bullet of of reasonable construction and learn it well, know where it shoots and you will kill Eland to Duiker with correct shot placement.
I do not like premium bullets for the .308 because they tend to be too tough for .308 velocities. I actually question even bonded bullets of 168 gr being used in the .308
Thanks Treeman. My rifle likes 165gr, they work well so I normally use them. The Federal, Norma and Sako I haven't had any issues with. Seems to love Federal though, but I haven't used it for hunting. I have used Norma and Sako.
The Federal, Norma and Sako I haven't had any issues with. Seems to love Federal though, but I haven't used it for hunting. I have used Norma and Sako.
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The Federals work, that is why they still in production so many years later with no real horror warning posts out there, no absolute warnings to avoid them either.
Its a .308, not a thoroughbred tropical parrot that needs a special diet, correct temperature and specific humidity, it is an feral cat that might do a bit better with some cares, but will flourish regardless.
If you were looking for an interesting, fun to learn, be a scientist weapon to reload for, you have bought the wrong caliber.
Use the bullet that groups best and if possible that shoots very well even a grain before and after best load, u know like, shoots a good group with 3 test loads. Try avoid a bullet that shoots real shit with every load except one specific load tiny sweet spot. This will insure that you have good results hot or cold days, in the sun or at night, even inland and on the coast.
My .204 seems to shoot very well at the range down at the coast, but the groups open up inland ?
I ended up using the Barnes Vortx 168gr. Worked well. Wildebeest was shot at 146m broadside, entered from the left shoulder and found under the skin on the opposite shoulder. Wildebeest was found approximately 30m from where it was shot.
Barnes1.jpg
Barnes2.jpg
A very well deformed bullet, uniform yet ragged. Not that I am a expert, but from bullet recovery, to bullet form it seems almost perfect choice. The only thing wrong is that the bullet was recovered, I want an exit wound, its almost a must.
Please post the images you sent me, they make for good viewing.
I have posted the image under the Hunts, Past tense thread.
Quote from: Mohamed on Jun 19, 2023, 10:50 PMI ended up using the Barnes Vortx 168gr. Worked well. Wildebeest was shot at 146m broadside, entered from the left shoulder and found under the skin on the opposite shoulder. Wildebeest was found approximately 30m from where it was shot.
Barnes1.jpg
Barnes2.jpg
The Barnes seems to have performed well.
From my limited experience with this type of bullet, I have found that going lighter often gives better performance. Retained weight is still close to 100%, but bullet stays mushroom forward and penetrates straighter, often exiting. This is likely due to better gyroscopic stabilisation of the shorter bullet and higher impact velocity giving faster and more even expansion.
Just an empirical observation.
From my limited experience with this type of bullet, I have found that going lighter often gives better performance. Retained weight is still close to 100%, but bullet stays mushroom forward and penetrates straighter, often exiting. This is likely due to better gyroscopic stabilisation of the shorter bullet and higher impact velocity giving faster and more even expansion.
Just an empirical observation.
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THIS IS INTERESTING INDEED. The gyroscopic stabilization part !!!!! I knew this, but did not know I knew this. Gerrie Schultz from GS Custom taught me this 20 years ago but I did not click, it is why he always sold lighter bullets than that which could be stabilized. IE he recommended 110 gr bullets for the .270 Win because of what you just said, even though he made 130 gr bullets that would also be accurate. That Gerrie Schultz was a very very clever. VERY !
Quote from: Treeman on Jun 28, 2023, 04:00 PM***********************
THIS IS INTERESTING INDEED. The gyroscopic stabilization part !!!!! I knew this, but did not know I knew this. Gerrie Schultz from GS Custom taught me this 20 years ago but I did not click, it is why he always sold lighter bullets than that which could be stabilized. IE he recommended 110 gr bullets for the .270 Win because of what you just said, even though he made 130 gr bullets that would also be accurate. That Gerrie Schultz was a very very clever. VERY !
When he (GS) started turning his original copper expanding bullets (those with the smooth shanks), I obtained some 130gn 308" bullets to test on warthog. At the time I was culling a lot of them. They performed well. Better than I expected for such a light bullet. Most exited on broadside shots, even when encountering bone.
Then I figured, if the 130gn bullets worked so well, the 150gn version should work even better. So I odered a pack and loaded them. The pigs still died, but the bullets did not exit. Most of them also swapped ends inside the pigs, ending with the base forward. When I finally met him, GS explained to me the issues with stability and maintaining a straight path through the animal. Obviously, he had done his test already.
I fear a lot of the current crop of copper expanding bullet makers lack in practical experience with their own bullets in the field and most reloaders just want to stay with a familiar bullet weight when changing from lead core to mono copper.
Does such a lighter, faster bullet cause more bruising, or less?
Quote from: Ds J on Jul 01, 2023, 02:47 PMDoes such a lighter, faster bullet cause more bruising, or less?
There are 2 contributors to bruising:
1. Bullet fragments from the forward portion of the lead core that disintegrates at high velocity. The mono copper expanding bullets usually don't do that, so this cause is eliminated.
2. Bone fragments that go out from the bullet impact. This is about the same with both types, although with the higher impact velocity of a mono there may be more damage, all else being equal.
So you get more from the one source and less from the other, the 2 should mostly equal out.
Also keep in mind that retained weight is usually considered a good measure of bullet performance, as the retained weight is the part of the bullet that does the actual deep penetration, as opposed to the lost weight of the bullet that usually does the bruising. If you compare a 130gn mono Cu .308" bullet with a 180gn lead core .308", I expect the Mono bullet to retain more weight, usually close to 100%, whereas the lead core would do great to retain just 60%.
Jinne, jy laat my nou baie inghils tik...
My reason for asking is that I have experienced all types of damage with all types of bullets.
Basically zero meat lost from broadside shots - from a 300 Weatherby with a 130gr Impala at +-170m, as well as from a 308 with a 180gr Sierra Pro-Hunter at 40m. I also had similar results on blue wildebeest and waterbuck with 35gr Impala mono's from my 222. (Note: these last two were done when I didn't know better!)
The trick was that I did not hit bone with any of the shots. As soons as one hits bone it tends to become messy. Hitting bone with soft (target/varnint type) bullets makes it even worse.
Mono bullets seem to make a wider surface area of blood meat than lead based bullets, I think this may be due to velocity. Lead core bullets cause deeper blood shot meat than mono's, but the mono initial appearance can be worse looking on the surface between skin and meat.
shots behind shoulders between ribs have less meat loss, but death is much less "there and then" than a lead bullet same POI
I used to be very VERY mono bullet pro, I have now come full circle and use Interlocks for all but the biggest animals.
Nothing beats a mono for penetration, but that DRT or just a few paces affect is seldom matched by a mono bullet that has not destroyed the nervous system - lung shots are notably slower to have fatal affect using momo bullets.
I have started playing with Mono bullets at lower velocity and the results seem to indicate we are just shooting too fast.