Allgunstuff Forum

Greetings everyone  :)

I've created this thread for friendly open discussions, because there's a vast variety of discussions surrounding the current FCA, so this thread is solely aimed at your own personal opinion/view as a firearm or future owner.

It will be a very curious and intriguing discussion, I believe, and it also sort of serves as "free research" as to where firearm / future owners stand, regarding legislation.

I guess this is sort of a "spin off" thread to the How To Fight Gun Control South Africa Thread.


For instance when the threat of a draft bill / Amendments rolls out, all coordinating efforts goes into defending the current FCA (legislation), but never a push to broaden the rights, with fewer restrictions, fewer regulations, fewer prohibitions, digitalisation, less Administration, the list goes on.

There is unfortunately also a small part of the FA community that is satisfied with the current FCA (legislation), even if given the opportunity to broaden it, they will want to have it remain as is, I guess that is largely due to misinformation and not a great understanding of what it can be, too many "braai stories" etc.

But to simply kick off this thread, I've created a poll with the simple question below as a start to this thread.

Let us start off with a very simple question, your personal stance on the CFR (Registry) if given the opportunity would you have the CFR (Registry) abolished in its entirety, or do you believe it serves an important purpose, or maybe you are still on the fence (neutral).

If your opinion is to preserve the CFR (Registry), why would that be, what has or does it achieve, what warrants its existence ?

I am of the opinion that I do not need to be controlled - but other people should be. Not a discussion point, but a thought I think everyone has had. Just a put out there, just a human thingee, we all kinda have these thoughts.
 I know trust and believe that my firearms are not for the use by or for bad deeds, but I am not sure of the other guy. I know guys that just should not own guns, but they do not think so.

My vote was "not sure", simply because one has to think it through very carefully.

From Big T on the other forum I learned that allowing the death sentence might not necessarily be a wise decision, simply because one has to be able to trust whoever executes (correct word?) the law.

The same with the CFA and the CFR. Taking away the CFR - who will do it instead? A private company who doesn't get paid, and it stops altogether? We need responsible folks up there.

Or take away the CFA and politicians may start firing full auto weapons at gatherings? We need a proper response to such occurrences.

If it is simply about the process, or more freedom for firearm owners, then most definitely yes. Some means of order need to be built into the system, simply to keep the rowdy elements at bay. That is where society should step in.

One of the wisest pro-gun saying I ever heard was "An armed society is a polite society"; maybe start there. The second thing one needs is personal responsibility. If one person makes stupid decisions which endanger others, the bystanders should be willing and able to put a stop to those things immediately if necessary.

We are being declared competent, but then stripped of that status and further obliged to apply for every firearm purchased. I do not mind the record keeping, but the firearm is never your property to dispose of at will. There is always the proviso that the new owner must get a license. Simplify the process and ensure better record keeping and admin processes.

Quote from: Ds J on Nov 13, 2023, 09:10 PMMy vote was "not sure", simply because one has to think it through very carefully.

From Big T on the other forum I learned that allowing the death sentence might not necessarily be a wise decision, simply because one has to be able to trust whoever executes (correct word?) the law.

The same with the CFA and the CFR. Taking away the CFR - who will do it instead? A private company who doesn't get paid, and it stops altogether? We need responsible folks up there.

Or take away the CFA and politicians may start firing full auto weapons at gatherings? We need a proper response to such occurrences.

If it is simply about the process, or more freedom for firearm owners, then most definitely yes. Some means of order need to be built into the system, simply to keep the rowdy elements at bay. That is where society should step in.

One of the wisest pro-gun saying I ever heard was "An armed society is a polite society"; maybe start there. The second thing one needs is personal responsibility. If one person makes stupid decisions which endanger others, the bystanders should be willing and able to put a stop to those things immediately if necessary.

To be honest whether or not the CFR exists, criminals are going to criminal, doesn't matter what type of systems you have in place, there's ways around it especially if it's
administered by the SAPS / Government, as seen countless times.


Do you truly believe a convicted criminal cannot obtain a firearm license or competency, through means of corruption, bribery or through Government's law enforcement entities.

All that it does in my opinion is gives SAPS / Government more control over the ordinary law abiding citizen and responsible owners, it does not control or lesser / restrict FA's into criminal hands.

I don't believe that it's necessary for CFR (government) to micro manage your choices in owning a firearm.

Let the CFR (government) have access to all your personal and highly confidential information.

Let the CFR (government) know how many firearms, ammunition and components you own.

The CFR (government) shouldn't be allowed to track firearm ownership.

The CFR (government) should not have a say in which type/particular firearm you're allowed to own.

Let's leave out the, criminality, corruption and fraud aspects within the CFR out of these question.

Lastly, what has or does the CFR achieve ?

What we want and what we can expect to get aren't even in different chapters of the same book. They are in different sections of the library and written in different languages.

The ANC is a kleptocommie regime and they aren't here for advancing civil liberty and reducing the scale or scope of state buggery in our lives let alone making anything efficient or reliable. At best we can hope to slow down the creeping legislation and regulation.

Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Nov 13, 2023, 11:24 PM

Quote from: Ds J on Nov 13, 2023, 09:10 PMMy vote was "not sure", simply because one has to think it through very carefully.

From Big T on the other forum I learned that allowing the death sentence might not necessarily be a wise decision, simply because one has to be able to trust whoever executes (correct word?) the law.

The same with the CFA and the CFR. Taking away the CFR - who will do it instead? A private company who doesn't get paid, and it stops altogether? We need responsible folks up there.

Or take away the CFA and politicians may start firing full auto weapons at gatherings? We need a proper response to such occurrences.

If it is simply about the process, or more freedom for firearm owners, then most definitely yes. Some means of order need to be built into the system, simply to keep the rowdy elements at bay. That is where society should step in.

One of the wisest pro-gun saying I ever heard was "An armed society is a polite society"; maybe start there. The second thing one needs is personal responsibility. If one person makes stupid decisions which endanger others, the bystanders should be willing and able to put a stop to those things immediately if necessary.

To be honest whether or not the CFR exists, criminals are going to criminal, doesn't matter what type of systems you have in place, there's ways around it especially if it's
administered by the SAPS / Government, as seen countless times.


Do you truly believe a convicted criminal cannot obtain a firearm license or competency, through means of corruption, bribery or through Government's law enforcement entities.

All that it does in my opinion is gives SAPS / Government more control over the ordinary law abiding citizen and responsible owners, it does not control or lesser / restrict FA's into criminal hands.

I don't believe that it's necessary for CFR (government) to micro manage your choices in owning a firearm.

Let the CFR (government) have access to all your personal and highly confidential information.

Let the CFR (government) know how many firearms, ammunition and components you own.

The CFR (government) shouldn't be allowed to track firearm ownership.

The CFR (government) should not have a say in which type/particular firearm you're allowed to own.

Let's leave out the, criminality, corruption and fraud aspects within the CFR out of these question.

Lastly, what has or does the CFR achieve ?

Snake, you are correct. Guns are not the problem, people are.

One cannot and should not take freedom from one due to the incapability or unwillingness of another.

My careful approach is simply to maintain the bigger picture and to guard against rush decisions.  If I demand/grant certain rights for myself, I must also grant them to another.

In a fair world things are easy. Since we face our own types of troubles, we need to find our own solutions.

Quote from: Ds J on Nov 13, 2023, 09:10 PM...

Or take away the CFA and politicians may start firing full auto weapons at gatherings? We need a proper response to such occurrences.

...

Have we already forgotten the videos of politicians (of the current regime, not the wannabees) waving an firing totally illegal AK's?  What about the tons and tons of AK's and ammo that they have imported highly illegally and that are still unaccounted for?  Only rust and time can now do what the FCA and the previous act failed to do...

I think our FCA is great so far as: The competency is good, because it restricts the licensing of firearms to those "intelligent" enough to pass the exam, and having a wait on a license prevents people making rash decisions on the FA's they want to own.

There are however problems with the enactment of the FCA. Instructors can be bought off for the competency exam. The paperwork takes too long to process. It should take a maximum a month to evaluate a new license application not 6. The FA's from deceased estates are not followed up properly etc These admin problems reflect a lack of leadership in government and should be separated from the merits of FCA. I would also make it that sporting FA licenses shouldn't expire. This business of renewals serves little benefit to society.

Personally, I think self defense FA's should be managed differently from sporting guns. I think for self defense SD, the owners should be forced to practice a certain number of hours/rounds per year to maintain their license. I think the cops should run practical courses/refreshers as part of SD FA ownership, where you learn what to do in the event of a highjacking, home invasion etc, so that they can work with the community, and have people they can call upon in the even of uprising, or invasion etc

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 17, 2023, 04:04 PMI think our FCA is great so far as: The competency is good, because it restricts the licensing of firearms to those "intelligent" enough to pass the exam, and having a wait on a license prevents people making rash decisions on the FA's they want to own.

There are however problems with the enactment of the FCA. Instructors can be bought off for the competency exam. The paperwork takes too long to process. It should take a maximum a month to evaluate a new license application not 6. The FA's from deceased estates are not followed up properly etc These admin problems reflect a lack of leadership in government and should be separated from the merits of FCA. I would also make it that sporting FA licenses shouldn't expire. This business of renewals serves little benefit to society.

Personally, I think self defense FA's should be managed differently from sporting guns. I think for self defense SD, the owners should be forced to practice a certain number of hours/rounds per year to maintain their license. I think the cops should run practical courses/refreshers as part of SD FA ownership, where you learn what to do in the event of a highjacking, home invasion etc, so that they can work with the community, and have people they can call upon in the even of uprising, or invasion etc

******************************
Great ideas, but we are in africa and nothing works, and when it does it is not in intended way. Can you imagine the queues ?
The bribery, the incompetence ? Maybe in Europe or old South Africa, but never in this fkup place.

Couldn't agree less with most of that. The competency certificate says at best that you have been able to remember some information and fire a few rounds at a target without leaks being sprung in you or the bystanders.

The number of cops in the country competent to give any kind of guidance on the use of firearms is terrifyingly low. When I see cops handling firearms I like to make space having been flagged with loaded guns more by plods than civilians over the years.

The idea that firearms licensed for SD should be subject to refresher courses etc gets an absolute no from me. Guns are guns regardless of what excuse you provide for having them. If you do something illegal with a gun you should be prosecuted and convicted accordingly. If you don't you should be left the f alone by the toss in the silly hat and his posse of uniformed criminals.

I do not think we should reinvent the wheel. How does places like Switzerland, the Philippines and Israel work with firearms?

In Norway, a large part of licensing has been transferred to the hunter's association. A Norwegian explained to me that the state basically hold them responsible according to the line "If the firearm owners screw up, we take away all the guns". Hence they have very high standards, but once there things are easy.

I think you nailed it at'standards' Ds J. As a country, ours vary across a substantial range. The fact that something works well where they are typically high means little for us where they are overwhelmingly low or entirely absent.

With our populace that is so troubled and generally (note generally) are trouble wherever they end up, not much that can work will work. The old government created a monster in this country and that monster will take time to breed out, die off, if that monster does not become the norm as it has done in most of post Colonial Africa.
Africa is its own cup of poison and the poison seeds to much.

I believe africa will only succeed under a dictatorship. (hate that thought)

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 17, 2023, 04:04 PMI think our FCA is great so far as: The competency is good, because it restricts the licensing of firearms to those "intelligent" enough to pass the exam, and having a wait on a license prevents people making rash decisions on the FA's they want to own.

There are however problems with the enactment of the FCA. Instructors can be bought off for the competency exam. The paperwork takes too long to process. It should take a maximum a month to evaluate a new license application not 6. The FA's from deceased estates are not followed up properly etc These admin problems reflect a lack of leadership in government and should be separated from the merits of FCA. I would also make it that sporting FA licenses shouldn't expire. This business of renewals serves little benefit to society.

Personally, I think self defense FA's should be managed differently from sporting guns. I think for self defense SD, the owners should be forced to practice a certain number of hours/rounds per year to maintain their license. I think the cops should run practical courses/refreshers as part of SD FA ownership, where you learn what to do in the event of a highjacking, home invasion etc, so that they can work with the community, and have people they can call upon in the even of uprising, or invasion etc

The FCA is most definitely not a great piece of legislation, way too many restrictions, regulations, hoops & loops to jump through etc.


The competency aspect restricts nothing, if a criminal wants to obtain an FA he will do so with or without a CFR (Register), and if you truly believe that it is impossible for a convicted criminal to obtain a legitimate license through the CFR then you are being delusional because that has been reported numerous times.

What about the thousands of FA owners that EDC their S16 pistols every day, according to you that is a Sport FA License there should be fewer rules and restrictions, not more.


FA owners should be forced ??? We are already being forced to comply with silly restrictions and regulations, that make no sense at all.
So now you somehow want to have a dedicated status format for SD as well ?


You have to be joking if you want to get the SAPS involved in training civilians, do you believe the SAPS has any training in hijackings, home invasions etc?  The SAPS is NOT ever going to come to your rescue in any life-threatening situation. Uhmm so, most definitely not, I don't want any SAPS or Government Law Enforcement Officer training in my vicinity, thank you very much.

I'll put this question to you as well, what has or does the CFR (Register) achieve?

Firearms are usually regulated because governments do not trust the people, or because of control. In SA, the ANC wanted all firearms removed when they were negotiating with the NP before 1994. Hence, we can assume that the CFA is part of the political program, and still  intends to disarm the people.

Why was there a time when countries like SA and the US had very little, or no firearm legislation at all? What changed from before 1939?

Another thing is that our society became aware that not all folks should have firearms. However, controlling guns does not stop crime, and in a country like ours where violence and firearms is part of society, the good folks should have even more freedom to protect themselves.

Quote from: Ds J on Dec 18, 2023, 06:28 PMAnother thing is that our society became aware that not all folks should have firearms. However, controlling guns does not stop crime, and in a country like ours where violence and firearms is part of society, the good folks should have even more freedom to protect themselves.

That is the bottom line. There are a great many people who should be prevented from possessing and doing all sorts of things for the greater good of society. Sadly the ability of the state to discern which of those should be so controlled is influenced by their desire for power and who they need to BS and pay to retain it as much as their ability to do it.

Quote from: oafpatroll on Dec 18, 2023, 07:34 PM

Quote from: Ds J on Dec 18, 2023, 06:28 PMAnother thing is that our society became aware that not all folks should have firearms. However, controlling guns does not stop crime, and in a country like ours where violence and firearms is part of society, the good folks should have even more freedom to protect themselves.

That is the bottom line. There are a great many people who should be prevented from possessing and doing all sorts of things for the greater good of society. Sadly the ability of the state to discern which of those should be so controlled is influenced by their desire for power and who they need to BS and pay to retain it as much as their ability to do it.

The government's job is - theoretically - very easy: they should help us do the things which are difficult to do on our own. Schools, roads, hospitals and protecting against larger  groups who can harm us. The rest we can do ourselves.

Unfortunately, power is the one thing that mankind cannot handle properly. Most people want to be important. Democracy in our age is not about serving the people, but rather about winning the next election.

Give the people the power to look out for themselves and sort out their own troubles and the petty crooks will not be able to do their evil deeds.

I live in George, the SAPS here are honest, hard working people suffering under poor leadership and policy from central government. I don't share the same negativity to the SAPS as others in ZA who have had horrendous experiences.

Some of my ideas would work well, in a DA led separatist Western Cape.

Our current FCA is not that bad relative to other countries. It allows private FA ownership of most classes of FA's and offers some restrictions to stop us becoming a nut house, where crazy stupid people can have lots of guns.

The problem is not the act, it is government's role in the implementation of the act. Lets please separate these issues. We are all familiar with the latter. This thread was supposed to discuss the former, not have a moaning session about the ZA kakistocracy we are suffering under.

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 19, 2023, 03:40 PMI live in George, the SAPS here are honest, hard working people suffering under poor leadership and policy from central government. I don't share the same negativity to the SAPS as others in ZA who have had horrendous experiences.

SAPS is overwhelmingly crap at everything they do on a national level. The fact that your piece of paradise sort of works is a statistical outlier. You need go no further than the billions stolen during their covid emergency procurement gravy festival and their own abysmal national crime and case resolution statistics to confirm that.     

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 19, 2023, 03:40 PMSome of my ideas would work well, in a DA led separatist Western Cape.

Which would be a different country and is therefore largely irrelevant to us sacks that live elsewhere.

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 19, 2023, 03:40 PMOur current FCA is not that bad relative to other countries. It allows private FA ownership of most classes of FA's and offers some restrictions to stop us becoming a nut house, where crazy stupid people can have lots of guns.

The act has as much to do with preventing us becoming a nut house as Cele does with law enforcement. It'a also poor in many respects as it allows SAPS to make up their own regulations under it's authority. It also created a vast bureaucracy that took thousands of cops off the streets to shuffle paper, a task at which they perform more poorly than actual policing. The crazy people who shouldn't have guns aren't impacted a jot by the act and they have ll they need, much of it provided by SAPS themselves and the SANDF. I'd be interested in hearing which bits of it you think are good legislation.

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 19, 2023, 03:40 PMThe problem is not the act, it is government's role in the implementation of the act. Lets please separate these issues. We are all familiar with the latter. This thread was supposed to discuss the former, not have a moaning session about the ZA kakistocracy we are suffering under.

Acts are only as useful as their ability to be implemented allows them to be. The FCA, even if it were a top class piece of legislation, is as useful as tits on a pig if there is no way to implement it such that achieves it's aims. 

This has now become unpleasant. I have a great idea.

Take this thread to Gunsite where it belongs and leave this site to us ostriches that want to talk about guns and hunting and reloading.

I was promised a forum devoid of this crap. Make it so.

Quote from: janfred on Dec 19, 2023, 04:37 PMThis has now become unpleasant. I have a great idea.

Take this thread to Gunsite where it belongs and leave this site to us ostriches that want to talk about guns and hunting and reloading.

I was promised a forum devoid of this crap. Make it so.

Eh? This is about gun legislation. I fail to see what you are objecting to.

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 19, 2023, 03:40 PMI live in George, the SAPS here are honest, hard working people suffering under poor leadership and policy from central government. I don't share the same negativity to the SAPS as others in ZA who have had horrendous experiences.

Some of my ideas would work well, in a DA led separatist Western Cape.

Our current FCA is not that bad relative to other countries. It allows private FA ownership of most classes of FA's and offers some restrictions to stop us becoming a nut house, where crazy stupid people can have lots of guns.

The problem is not the act, it is government's role in the implementation of the act. Lets please separate these issues. We are all familiar with the latter. This thread was supposed to discuss the former, not have a moaning session about the ZA kakistocracy we are suffering under.

I'm not arguing that there's honest and hardworking individuals within SAPS, but they're most definitely the vast minority and its hard to do a great job with no leadership and no resources.

As for the WC, don't forget about members like Chris Prinsloo and the likes.

The issue with your ideas is a fallacy, you still want strict control. It has been proven many times over and over again, that stricter gun control legislation does NOT combat crime or keep crazy stupid people away from it.

What has the CFR achieved?

Quote from: janfred on Dec 19, 2023, 04:37 PMThis has now become unpleasant. I have a great idea.

Take this thread to Gunsite where it belongs and leave this site to us ostriches that want to talk about guns and hunting and reloading.

I was promised a forum devoid of this crap. Make it so.

Is this not a Forum?

Are we not allowed to discuss and debate gun control ?

If you haven't noticed, our FA rights are being attacked, we need a lot more people to get involved in discussions like this, we need all the organisations, associations, dealers, individuals etc to call out the BS that's being spewed.

I'm on a few Forums, if you disagree with something or you have no interest in the topic, then you simply ignore it and move on.

Quote from: janfred on Dec 19, 2023, 04:37 PMThis has now become unpleasant. I have a great idea.

Take this thread to Gunsite where it belongs and leave this site to us ostriches that want to talk about guns and hunting and reloading.

I was promised a forum devoid of this crap. Make it so.

And pretty soon if nothing is done hunting season will open on Ostriches....

And pretty soon if nothing is done hunting season will open on Ostriches....
[/quote]

Excellent, what is the day fee, and how much is it for a trophy ostrich? ;D

Quote from: Againstthegrains on Dec 20, 2023, 12:33 PMAnd pretty soon if nothing is done hunting season will open on Ostriches....

Excellent, what is the day fee, and how much is it for a trophy ostrich? ;D
[/quote]

Free in this case. If Sergeant (or could be WO by now) Janeke is still in George, please send my regards.

Instead of creating a new thread and not to let this thread die off, and to move on to another discussion.

QUESTION:

Why do you value the right to arms ownership ?

PS: Please feel free to continue to discuss the first part as well in post one (1) if you wish.

Quote from: janfred on Dec 19, 2023, 04:37 PMThis has now become unpleasant. I have a great idea.

Take this thread to Gunsite where it belongs and leave this site to us ostriches that want to talk about guns and hunting and reloading.

I was promised a forum devoid of this crap. Make it so.

It would appear that you do not understand the link between - politics and government
and
The - "Right to bear ARMS"
or
"This Crap"

Which is CENTRAL to firearm ownership !

By sending the "unpleasantness" elsewhere you are also sending YOUR right to own and bear arms - elsewhere

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Second Amendment (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment)

Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Dec 20, 2023, 08:01 AMAre we not allowed to discuss and debate gun control ?
If you haven't noticed, our FA rights are being attacked, we need a lot more people to get involved in discussions like this, we need all the organisations, associations, dealers, individuals etc to call out the BS that's being spewed.

ARE SOUTH AFRICAN GLOCKS LEGAL ?

Please watch at about 46 min near then end on this YouTube video where it is claimed that most of the Glocks in SA were imported illegally ?
Names are mentioned


Please Mr Snake .. you never answer any of my questions - where I question the role and efficacy of all these wonderful organisations that are meant to protect firearms owners and firearm ownership
Are they actually fulfilling their - oversight duties ?

Quote from: Newton on Aug 14, 2024, 10:34 AM

Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Dec 20, 2023, 08:01 AMPlease Mr Snake .. you never answer any of my questions - where I question the role and efficacy of all these wonderful organisations that are meant to protect firearms owners and firearm ownership
Are they actually fulfilling their - oversight duties ?

Sir Isaac  ;D

You've already said it, you've already depicted it in the other thread, unfortunately the organisations, associations, individuals etc, the community as a whole has been hopelessly deficient on this precisely because there is no full time commitment to the issue.

Most if not all, have fundamentally become a service oriented business with their membership tiers and perks, which leaves very little for innovation, which is a shame when there is so much low hanging fruit.

Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Aug 17, 2024, 12:12 AMSir Isaac  ;D

Wrong "Newton"  :)

THIS one ...  ( who never received a knighthood :'(  - and went broke

Charles Newton (https://newtonrifles.com/)

Father of high velocity (https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/father-high-velocity-charles-newton/454571)

.30 Newton Resurrected (https://www.everand.com/article/626303702/30-Newton-Resurrected)