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Hunting => General Hunting Discussion => Topic started by: Treeman on Jul 15, 2024, 10:21 PM

Title: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Jul 15, 2024, 10:21 PM
I am tired of dirty meat, cutting away blood meat, then washing and more cutting to get the half digested grass out of wherever it's been blown into.
Cody and I are meat hunters, so full on shoulder shots are really not an option. We have tried double lung shots, through one shoulder in and out behind far side shoulder, behind one in and out on far side in shoulder. We have tried full frontal and we tried in behind last rib and out on far side shoulder, shot placement we have tried in excess - much.
Everytime its either blood meat or gut content in the wound channel or surrounds, and it sucks to work such an carcass. The clients are now told "in on the shoulder bone and out on or behind other side shoulder" - sorry about the meat loss.
I do a lot of headshots, but they are almost entirely on those get lucky at 80 m here pops a head out looking other direction cases - freehand shooting. Lovely clean carcass and no meat damage.

I have been talking to Cody about taking lower neck shots, in front of the shoulder from the side and above the line of the spine if from front or back. The frontal or facing away shots are pretty safe, if you hit the neck its dead, the side on shots I am still pondering.
Tonight we again looked at a carcass we were working and discussed the matter in detail, what shots to take and where to put the bullet. 

Who here shoots neck shots ? Tell me about neck shots.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Jul 15, 2024, 10:44 PM
Agree, body shots are bloody and wasteful even though they are surer and easier. A neck shot - in my little experience with them - can be just as bloody and gooey as a shoulder shot. However, the bloody area and wasted meat is much less, and the larger cuts of meat are clean.

I have not taken many neck shots, but they are usually slightly easier than a head shot, simply because the neck does not move so much and the target area is slightly bigger.

In the upper neck area, they go down to stay down. It must have something to do with the shock to the medula oblongata.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: oafpatroll on Jul 16, 2024, 08:54 AM
Quote from: Ds J on Jul 15, 2024, 10:44 PMIn the upper neck area, they go down to stay down. It must have something to do with the shock to the medula oblongata.

I wonder if it might have something to do with a pressure wave in the blood so close to the brain?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 10:19 AM
Quote from: oafpatroll on Jul 16, 2024, 08:54 AM
Quote from: Ds J on Jul 15, 2024, 10:44 PMIn the upper neck area, they go down to stay down. It must have something to do with the shock to the medula oblongata.

I wonder if it might have something to do with a pressure wave in the blood so close to the brain?
************************************
no ! - It is simply the destruction of the spine, central nervous system.
Only 2 + 1 ways to kill.
Damage to nerve system
Loss of blood
Destruction of a vital organ, but that is by the result of one of the 2 above mentioned.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Jul 16, 2024, 11:23 AM
Everybody proposes head shots for clean meat. Lately I have shot three impala with neck shots just below the head. There is only 1 cm of meat on either side of the vertebrae and is a safe shot. It also looks neater than a head shot animal with eyes popping out. The easiest is with the animal looking away as the nose and teeth are out of the way.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: oafpatroll on Jul 16, 2024, 12:10 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 10:19 AM
Quote from: oafpatroll on Jul 16, 2024, 08:54 AM
Quote from: Ds J on Jul 15, 2024, 10:44 PMIn the upper neck area, they go down to stay down. It must have something to do with the shock to the medula oblongata.

I wonder if it might have something to do with a pressure wave in the blood so close to the brain?
************************************
no ! - It is simply the destruction of the spine, central nervous system.
Only 2 + 1 ways to kill.
Damage to nerve system
Loss of blood
Destruction of a vital organ, but that is by the result of one of the 2 above mentioned.

I was meaning where the spine hasn't been destroyed. Mate of mine does harvesting, sometimes from helicopters and has shot dozens of animals a day on occasion. He shoots head and neck shots exclusively to spare meat and says that he's had bokkies drop where the spine has not been severed. I'm talking here about shots that are within centimetres of the brain but have hit neither it nor the spine.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 06:11 PM

[/quote]

I wonder if it might have something to do with a pressure wave in the blood so close to the brain?
[/quote]
************************************
no ! - It is simply the destruction of the spine, central nervous system.
Only 2 + 1 ways to kill.
Damage to nerve system
Loss of blood
Destruction of a vital organ, but that is by the result of one of the 2 above mentioned.
[/quote]

I was meaning where the spine hasn't been destroyed. Mate of mine does harvesting, sometimes from helicopters and has shot dozens of animals a day on occasion. He shoots head and neck shots exclusively to spare meat and says that he's had bokkies drop where the spine has not been severed. I'm talking here about shots that are within centimetres of the brain but have hit neither it nor the spine.
[/quote]
****************************
if he is doing neck shots from a heli, they use shotguns, shotguns multiple wounds disrupt the nervous system causing death. That said, I think a supersonic bullet passing a cm from the spine will still cause severe terminal damage to the system - shutdown.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 06:22 PM
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Jul 16, 2024, 11:23 AMThere is only 1 cm of meat on either side of the vertebrae and is a safe shot. It also looks neater than a head shot animal with eyes popping out. The easiest is with the animal looking away as the nose and teeth are out of the way.
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Yes, this is my chosen "head shot" that you describe, I seldom aim at the head itself - usually the head from behind through neck. If you hit, its down and over and if you miss its a total miss.

The shot I am wanting to explore is the low neck front of shoulders, for those longer shots.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: oafpatroll on Jul 16, 2024, 07:25 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 06:11 PMif he is doing neck shots from a heli, they use shotguns, shotguns multiple wounds disrupt the nervous system causing death. That said, I think a supersonic bullet passing a cm from the spine will still cause severe terminal damage to the system - shutdown.

The choppers aren't what they use most of the time but when they do he shoots a stubby barrelled lightweight savage bolt action in 6.5 creed of all things. 
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 09:33 PM
Quote from: oafpatroll on Jul 16, 2024, 07:25 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Jul 16, 2024, 06:11 PMif he is doing neck shots from a heli, they use shotguns, shotguns multiple wounds disrupt the nervous system causing death. That said, I think a supersonic bullet passing a cm from the spine will still cause severe terminal damage to the system - shutdown.

The choppers aren't what they use most of the time but when they do he shoots a stubby barrelled lightweight savage bolt action in 6.5 creed of all things. 
***************************
 :o  Yoh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! man must be quite able with a rifle.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Againstthegrains on Jul 17, 2024, 01:01 PM
One problem that I can foresee is that if you miss the spine, the shock to the CNS from a bullet hitting close to the CNS is enough for the animal to drop on the spot. Then you go up to it to cut the throat etc, and it suddenly gets up and runs away because it was just stunned, and not killed. I have seen this happen a few times on animals where a bullet comes close but doesn't damage the CNS.

Then again, to stir a bit with Treeman ;D :

1. a 270 win is fast and therefor terrible with respect to meat damage it causes.
2. lead cup and core bullets kill the best, but are the worst for meat damage
3. point 1&2 and synergistic ;)
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Jul 17, 2024, 01:22 PM
Quote from: Againstthegrains on Jul 17, 2024, 01:01 PM1. a 270 win is fast and therefor terrible with respect to meat damage it causes.
2. lead cup and core bullets kill the best, but are the worst for meat damage
3. point 1&2 and synergistic ;)
******************************
I think almost any bullet, if it hits that last part of the neck would be a killer. There is just so "no nothing" else in that small space, just dead if touched stuff.
 Add a cup and core bullet and its even deader.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Againstthegrains on Jul 18, 2024, 09:42 AM
I agree, for anything CNS a fast frangible bullet works best. You might miss the brain or spinal chord, but there are often enough small bullet fragments to go astray, and do the necessary.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 21, 2024, 10:08 PM

Guys, I have a problem ! This 7mm08 of Cody's is just causing so much meat damage - I just can not work it out.
 Animal is Impala - fallow deer
 7 mm Hornady Interlock 154 gr
velocity  5 m = 2650 fps
average shot distance 80 -130 m
meat damage 30 cm every direction from hole - yet we are often recovering reasonably well held together mushroomed bullets,its not like they splattered or impact was like 3000 fps - my .270 is fairing better meat damage wize.
What is going on here.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53402059394_88212251e7_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pmXvKY)20231216_104248 (https://flic.kr/p/2pmXvKY) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53052358327_b68340bea5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oQ4cPe)20230717_205227 (https://flic.kr/p/2oQ4cPe) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 21, 2024, 10:37 PM
I have had the same with 308, 180gr @ 2400fps.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: DaavG on Aug 22, 2024, 07:23 AM
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 21, 2024, 10:08 PMWhat is going on here.

What's the weight of that bullet? Looks like its shed quite a bit? Possibly a bonded version going forward?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 22, 2024, 08:00 AM


BUT WHY< WHY IS THIS HAPPENING<
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 22, 2024, 09:39 AM
I contacted a PH friend. He said that it has occurred often when animals were calm and not aware of the hunters.

Another probable explanation would be something related to blood pressure.

And it could be a combination of both.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Philip J on Aug 22, 2024, 12:49 PM
Did that animal drop quickly or did it run some distance after the shot?

From what I have seen with hunters who come here to shoot, it occurs more often when they hit both lungs, but the animal runs a fair distance before expiring. The theory is that the punctured lungs forces a lot of blood out the new hole and into the surrounding tissue. I have seen this irrespective of the calibre used. It is just a little more pronounced with faster bullets.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Againstthegrains on Aug 22, 2024, 01:08 PM
To me that looks like the animal ran a lot before it passed out from blood loss. The running pulls blood into the damaged connective tissue.

There are 2 different processes that involve meat damage:

1) Damage to the tissue immediately around the path of the bullet hole characterized by dark red meat a few cm around the bullet hole. This is made worse the faster the bullet is traveling due to shock. This is worse with lead bullets that fragment and the lead particles spread through the muscle tissue. This also is bad when you strike bone, and the bone fragments have the same effect as lead fragments. The cause of the colour change is fragmentation of capillary network of the surrounding tissue, causing a blood infiltrate. Since the capillaries in the tissue are small, the extent of the blood flow is limited. Less pronounced with mono's unless you hit bone.

2) Tissue infiltrate, which is what I see in the picture, where the animal is bleeding from engine room damage (hint: major vessels) and there is a path open between the source of the blood and the network of connective tissue that is found in the facia between the muscle layers. As the animal runs away, the movement between the layers pulls the blood in, and is a b1tch to get rid of. When you cut through, the meat (muscle) is clean and free of the above (point 1). Can happen with both monos and cup and core and severity is associated with the time the animal takes to die and the amount the animal moves after being shot.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 22, 2024, 04:43 PM
Quote from: Philip J on Aug 22, 2024, 12:49 PMDid that animal drop quickly or did it run some distance after the shot?

From what I have seen with hunters who come here to shoot, it occurs more often when they hit both lungs, but the animal runs a fair distance before expiring. The theory is that the punctured lungs forces a lot of blood out the new hole and into the surrounding tissue. I have seen this irrespective of the calibre used. It is just a little more pronounced with faster bullets.
**************************************************
20 m max before falling, usually on the spot.
BUT !
 The bigger question is why is it so pronounced this rifle combination ?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 22, 2024, 04:45 PM
Quote from: Againstthegrains on Aug 22, 2024, 01:08 PMTo me that looks like the animal ran a lot before it passed out from blood loss. The running pulls blood into the damaged connective tissue.

There are 2 different processes that involve meat damage:

1) Damage to the tissue immediately around the path of the bullet hole characterized by dark red meat a few cm around the bullet hole. This is made worse the faster the bullet is traveling due to shock. This is worse with lead bullets that fragment and the lead particles spread through the muscle tissue. This also is bad when you strike bone, and the bone fragments have the same effect as lead fragments. The cause of the colour change is fragmentation of capillary network of the surrounding tissue, causing a blood infiltrate. Since the capillaries in the tissue are small, the extent of the blood flow is limited. Less pronounced with mono's unless you hit bone.

2) Tissue infiltrate, which is what I see in the picture, where the animal is bleeding from engine room damage (hint: major vessels) and there is a path open between the source of the blood and the network of connective tissue that is found in the facia between the muscle layers. As the animal runs away, the movement between the layers pulls the blood in, and is a b1tch to get rid of. When you cut through, the meat (muscle) is clean and free of the above (point 1). Can happen with both monos and cup and core and severity is associated with the time the animal takes to die and the amount the animal moves after being shot.
***********************************
No ! - this is a lot of jello, spread far between muscles.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Aug 22, 2024, 05:16 PM
The Hornady Interlock bullets are not very hard and deform very quickly. This might explain the blood under the skin on entry.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 22, 2024, 05:49 PM
When blood from the chest cavity bleeds into the area around the wound, it usually leaves a thick, dark, gooey clump of blood. In some cases I have cleaned it, and the meat was still edible.

The haemorrhage in the photo looks and works differently - it is usually lighter blood, and it penetrates the slimey tissue between the skin and the muscles, as well as the muscles themselves. Trying to clean this is really tough because everything is gooey.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 22, 2024, 06:40 PM
Quote from: Ds J on Aug 22, 2024, 05:49 PMWhen blood from the chest cavity bleeds into the area around the wound, it usually leaves a thick, dark, gooey clump of blood. In some cases I have cleaned it, and the meat was still edible.

The haemorrhage in the photo looks and works differently - it is usually lighter blood, and it penetrates the slimey tissue between the skin and the muscles, as well as the muscles themselves. Trying to clean this is really tough because everything is gooey.
*********************************
KORECKTEEEEEEEE O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very messy, we are now just cutting 4 - 5 kg out and dumping, just not worth anything else.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 22, 2024, 07:20 PM
Food for thought/suggestion: dark (used) blood causes dark, gooey clumps, maybe because it flows slower. Light (arterial) blood causes large, slimey haemorrhages because it is under higher pressure.

???


Further question: does this occur mainly/mostly on one side of the animal (related to anatomy), or on both sides - bullet-related?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 22, 2024, 10:57 PM
Quote from: Ds J on Aug 22, 2024, 07:20 PMFood for thought/suggestion: dark (used) blood causes dark, gooey clumps, maybe because it flows slower. Light (arterial) blood causes large, slimey haemorrhages because it is under higher pressure.
???
Further question: does this occur mainly/mostly on one side of the animal (related to anatomy), or on both sides - bullet-related?
*********************************
Both side and sideways and in out every where - just this rifle and bullet - its this bullet, I am convinced of this.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 23, 2024, 07:11 AM
Do you have access to an x-ray machine? Maybe at a vet? It would show lead fragments.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Aug 23, 2024, 11:23 AM
Quite an explosive round - ELDX

https://youtu.be/NKwKoyw-SvM
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: oafpatroll on Aug 23, 2024, 11:35 AM
Quote from: Ds J on Aug 23, 2024, 07:11 AMDo you have access to an x-ray machine? Maybe at a vet? It would show lead fragments.

I saw a yoochoob vid some time back when lead bullets were being banned by the companies in the UK that buy game meat from recreational hunters and professional harvesters. Their xrays of lead bullet shot animals were interesting as they showed quite substantial intrusion and dispersion of lead into the meat even where there was no obvious visual cues of it. The commercial buyers banned lead projectiles in their supply chain long before the government got to it. 
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 23, 2024, 12:42 PM
If it is due to the bullet, it should be controllable with other types of bullets.

Sierra makes their Gameking in 150gr and 160gr.

Question: can someone say what happens whit mono bullets?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Aug 23, 2024, 12:54 PM
You mostly have an in and out on monos. There is some bloodshot meat that could be on both sides, but the very snotty blood is not normally present and it washes off reasonably well. I have seen similar bloodshot meat as the carcass in the pictures. This was due to shooting with a mono 175 old Barnes X in my 7x64. The bullet was poorly stabilized and seems to have hit the kudu cow length wise.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 23, 2024, 02:21 PM
Lead kills,  ;D
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Aug 23, 2024, 02:38 PM
Lead kills both ways. The hunted and the hunter.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Aug 23, 2024, 02:40 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-za/news/other/what-is-behind-the-shocking-number-of-deaths-linked-to-lead-poisoning/
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Againstthegrains on Aug 24, 2024, 04:18 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 22, 2024, 04:45 PM
Quote from: Againstthegrains on Aug 22, 2024, 01:08 PMTo me that looks like the animal ran a lot before it passed out from blood loss. The running pulls blood into the damaged connective tissue.

There are 2 different processes that involve meat damage:

1) Damage to the tissue immediately around the path of the bullet hole characterized by dark red meat a few cm around the bullet hole. This is made worse the faster the bullet is traveling due to shock. This is worse with lead bullets that fragment and the lead particles spread through the muscle tissue. This also is bad when you strike bone, and the bone fragments have the same effect as lead fragments. The cause of the colour change is fragmentation of capillary network of the surrounding tissue, causing a blood infiltrate. Since the capillaries in the tissue are small, the extent of the blood flow is limited. Less pronounced with mono's unless you hit bone.

2) Tissue infiltrate, which is what I see in the picture, where the animal is bleeding from engine room damage (hint: major vessels) and there is a path open between the source of the blood and the network of connective tissue that is found in the facia between the muscle layers. As the animal runs away, the movement between the layers pulls the blood in, and is a b1tch to get rid of. When you cut through, the meat (muscle) is clean and free of the above (point 1). Can happen with both monos and cup and core and severity is associated with the time the animal takes to die and the amount the animal moves after being shot.
***********************************
No ! - this is a lot of jello, spread far between muscles.

The red jello is clotted blood, mixed in with the spongy connective tissue. The blood spreads when it is in liquid form, and the animal is alive. By the time it is dead and you cut it up, it has clotted.

Maybe you should shoot the animals with a heparin injection, so that the blood will wash out easily ;D
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 25, 2024, 02:21 PM
Shot more Impala yesterday, same thing. I was able to study the carcass more carefully and I really feel that the bullet is coming apart just before exiting.
I will now load up a harder bullet and test it.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Aug 27, 2024, 12:14 PM
Question: did the bullets hit bone, or not?

If so, on which side/s did it occur?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: janfred on Aug 27, 2024, 12:37 PM
Well. Mine hit the scapula at entry and rib on exit.

I did not have a lot of bloodshot meat, but blood collected between the outer layer of meat and the rib layer of meat. To remove the blood, I had to cut the outer layer off. Now, what would have been a good rib turned into goulash.

From the amount of work required, head or neck shots on impala will be my future.

Entry in blue, blood jelly under green.
IMG_20240827_123022.jpg

Exit in blue, blood jelly under green
IMG_20240827_123153.jpg
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Aug 27, 2024, 03:44 PM
A longstanding statement about the 270 was that a shot on the shoulder gave bloodshot meat from nose to tail.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 27, 2024, 03:59 PM
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Aug 27, 2024, 03:44 PMA longstanding statement about the 270 was that a shot on the shoulder gave bloodshot meat from nose to tail.
****************************
Seems the 7mm 08 is about the same
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Againstthegrains on Aug 28, 2024, 03:08 PM
270 got that reputation because it was faster than 30 cal. Its not about the caliber or chambering, but the speed the bullet is going when it hits the animal.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 28, 2024, 05:45 PM
So where is the cut off speed for hyper meat damage ?

I have a feeling that one will find that reduction of meat damage will be directly proportional to speed of kill. No bang flop DRT without that hydrostatic wave happening. (obviously excluding CNS hits)
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: janfred on Aug 28, 2024, 11:42 PM
I shot my impala with a .308 180gr bullet doing around 2000fps on impact. Yet stil had a lot of blood between the meat layers. Actual blood-shot meat was quite small areas around the entry and exit, but the blood jelly area was huge. Most of that meat went for goulash and trimmings.

My biggest reason to use 180gr bullets is the low impact velocity to reduce meat loss. Doesn't help if blood goes between the layers.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 29, 2024, 07:29 AM
Quote from: janfred on Aug 28, 2024, 11:42 PMI shot my impala with a .308 180gr bullet doing around 2000fps on impact. Yet stil had a lot of blood between the meat layers. Actual blood-shot meat was quite small areas around the entry and exit, but the blood jelly area was huge. Most of that meat went for goulash and trimmings.

My biggest reason to use 180gr bullets is the low impact velocity to reduce meat loss. Doesn't help if blood goes between the layers.
****************************
Bullet make and type?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: janfred on Aug 29, 2024, 07:53 AM
Norma Oryx 180gr at a MV of 2520. Bonded bullet.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 29, 2024, 07:56 PM
Quote from: janfred on Aug 29, 2024, 07:53 AMNorma Oryx 180gr at a MV of 2520. Bonded bullet.
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Well ! There goes the better bullet theory, your meat damage was no less than Cody meat damage - cheap cup and core versus bonded premium.

So whats with all the meat damage?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Newton on Aug 31, 2024, 09:34 AM
Is anyone doing an immediate cutting of the throat to allow bleed out ?

At the "other-place"  TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance

Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Mohamed on Aug 31, 2024, 06:58 PM
Quote from: Newton on Aug 31, 2024, 09:34 AMIs anyone doing an immediate cutting of the throat to allow bleed out ?

At the "other-place"  TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance

Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals


Yes, we cut the throat and let it bleed out after shooting.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Aug 31, 2024, 10:50 PM
Quote from: Newton on Aug 31, 2024, 09:34 AMAt the "other-place"  TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance
Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals
***************************
a rod pushed through a animal causes a slow death compared to a lightning bolt through same animal same shot, much slower.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Sep 01, 2024, 08:25 AM
Pappabeer is 'n dokter.

https://www.jaracal.com/viewtopic.php?t=22954
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Newton on Sep 01, 2024, 03:14 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 31, 2024, 10:50 PM
Quote from: Newton on Aug 31, 2024, 09:34 AMAt the "other-place"  TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance
Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals
***************************
a rod pushed through a animal causes a slow death compared to a lightning bolt through same animal same shot, much slower.
A big rod at 2,500fps
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Sep 01, 2024, 09:24 PM

a rod pushed through a animal causes a slow death compared to a lightning bolt through same animal same shot, much slower.
[/quote]
A big rod at 2,500fps
[/quote]
Then at twice the speed of sound + some, you back where you were, high velocity bullet.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Sep 01, 2024, 09:27 PM
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Sep 01, 2024, 08:25 AMPappabeer is 'n dokter.

https://www.jaracal.com/viewtopic.php?t=22954
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But yesterday we shot a kudu at 2900 fps using a 130 gr cup and core bullet. First shot was 200 + m second about 60 m, meat damage nothing like the 7mm 08 on impala. I am beginning to believe the size of the animal has a lot to do with it all.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Sep 02, 2024, 06:36 PM
Now look at this 130 gr .270 cup and core mentioned above bullet at 3000 fps
I am really believing type and size of animal is a great determining factor in meat damage.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53966535905_21b2488c98_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qdQAXB)20240901_091950 (https://flic.kr/p/2qdQAXB) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Sep 02, 2024, 06:37 PM
Sorry "mentioned above post failed - heres the bullet.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53964258484_8b5a121971_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qdCVXJ)20240831_224700 (https://flic.kr/p/2qdCVXJ) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: JamesNotBond on Sep 02, 2024, 06:39 PM
Hello Tree
Do you have a picture of one of the damage causing bullets from Cody's rifle. (recovered bullet that is)
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Sep 02, 2024, 08:50 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53966682513_bdd70d18c3_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qdRmxk)20240902_204418 (https://flic.kr/p/2qdRmxk) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Newton on Sep 02, 2024, 09:16 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Sep 01, 2024, 09:24 PMThen at twice the speed of sound + some, you back where you were, high velocity bullet.
Heavy slow large calibre bullet big wound channel
BUT
Bad trajectory - especially for long range - the new hunting fad ( why you need high velocity )
Unless you shooting at close range - then too much velocity becomes a problem

Catch 22
Perhaps one should be shooting a .338 with a hybrid mono-metal ( SBC )  ????
.338 Win Mag quite popular and NOT a "sniper round"  .338 Lapua

Anyone got one and tested using SBC ?
or
Perhaps one of these .. ?

358 Winchester (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.358_Winchester)

Why one can never have too many rifles - and calibres


Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Sep 03, 2024, 03:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUXTfOQDWyE
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Newton on Sep 03, 2024, 04:12 PM
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Sep 03, 2024, 03:41 PMI love Barnes bullets 7mm-08 Deer Slayer Hopeful Ballistics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUXTfOQDWyE
Forgive me for titling your mysterious YouTube link - a pet hate of mine
Treeman has one of those .. a 7mm-08
Does HE use these bullets ?
Perhaps we could get a - from the field report ?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Newton on Sep 03, 2024, 04:25 PM
Treeman is going to have to do a bit of saving up - although I question the weight of 120gr

7mm 120Gr Barnes TTSX BT (50) (https://www.outthere24shop.co.za/7mm-284/9133-p-7mm-120gr-barnes-ttsx-bt-50.html)

BARNES 7MM 120GR TTSX BT(50) (https://gunshopdelmas.co.za/shop/bullets/111-barnes-7mm-120gr-ttsx-bt50.html)


Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Tripodmvr on Sep 04, 2024, 03:11 PM
Koos Barnard het die onderstaande op Jaracal forum rapporteer.

Dagsê
Soms leer 'n mens dat koeëls glad nie binne-in 'n bok reageer soos jy verwag hulle moet doen nie. Ek help jagters uitneem op die Karooplaas waartoe ek toegang het en het onlangs 'n interessante ding beleef. 'n Jagter het 'n koedoebul op 265m geskiet met sy .308, gelaai met 150gr Siera Prohunter-koeëls. Sy lading is 43gr S335 maar hy besit nie 'n chronograaf nie en weet nie wat die koeëlspoed is nie. Die bok het baie skuins (amper reguit) na hom toe gestaan en hy het gemik om te tref waar die nek en bors bymekaar aansluit (op die regterkant van die bul). Toe die skoot klap, het die koedoe 'n ent gehardloop en neergeslaan op sy regtersy. By die dier aangekom, moes ons hom regdraai vir foto's en dis toe dat ek die bultjie onder die vel hoog op sy linkerboud sien. Ek het daaraan gevoel, besef dit kan dalk die koeël wees en dit dadelik uitgesny. Tot my verbasing haal ek toe die Prohunter uit net om te vind dit het glad nie omgeklink nie.

Toe ons die koedoe omrol, sien ons dat die koeël sowat twee handbreedtes verder agtertoe (en effens hoog) op die blad getref het as waar die jagter gemik het. Met die pens se uithaal het ons gesien dat die koeël tussen twee ribbes in is, 'n gat deur die regterlong gemaak het, deur die grootmaag is en toe verder agtertoe tot in die boud. Ongelukkig kon ons nie sien of daar enige vleisskade was nie want die man het die koedoe met vel aan saamgeneem huis toe dieselfde aand. Soos julle op die foto kan sien, is die koeël byna ongeskonde behalwe vir die groefmerke op die skag.

Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Sep 04, 2024, 05:57 PM
That bullet was then traveling at about 2000 fps at 260 m, I get about 2600 fps with 43 gr S335 at muzzle.  Is a Sierra PH bullet expected to deform at that velocity, 2000 fps ?
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Ds J on Sep 08, 2024, 04:16 PM
Quote from: Treeman on Sep 04, 2024, 05:57 PMThat bullet was then traveling at about 2000 fps at 260 m, I get about 2600 fps with 43 gr S335 at muzzle.  Is a Sierra PH bullet expected to deform at that velocity, 2000 fps ?

Yes, they usually deform well at lower velocities. I shoot them from my 308, and they do well.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Againstthegrains on Oct 07, 2024, 12:08 PM
That is so weird. Normally cup and cores make an ugly mess.
Title: Re: dirty meat and shot placement
Post by: Treeman on Oct 07, 2024, 04:52 PM
Quote from: Newton on Sep 03, 2024, 04:25 PMTreeman is going to have to do a bit of saving up - although I question the weight of 120gr
7mm 120Gr Barnes TTSX BT (50)[/url[url="https://gunshopdelmas.co.za/shop/bullets/111-barnes-7mm-120gr-ttsx-bt50.html"]BARNES 7MM 120GR TTSX BT(50) (https://www.outthere24shop.co.za/7mm-284/9133-p-7mm-120gr-barnes-ttsx-bt-50.html)
******************************
Problem with these gold plated bullets is that they kill so slowly on smaller game.