Some time back I asked about the P14 action, to what pressure can it be reloaded, we decided that any modern actions pressures were safe.
Remember all the safety rules, one in particular being never have more than one powder on your desk - read the label out loud before use ?
Well here goes embarrassing !
I am still only using SOMCHEM propellants, all the rifles except for the 7mm-08 mono bullets, it uses my only tin of import, a tin of Hodgkin Varget, a black bottle red writing, the only one I have. I recently found that the Varget is the most suited propellant for the 303 P14.
I developed a load of about 54 gr for the P14 at about 50 000 PSI. I loaded up some test cases at various lengths at 54 gr, I only loaded one charge because I was confident of where I was at.
A friend of mine died and I was given a tin of Hodgkin Longshot, a pistol propellent. I decided instead of dump it I would use it to load a bag of 9 mm for Cody to learn handgun shooting. I loaded for Cody and left the Hodgkin on the table when finished.
I remember the rest clearly.
I decided at like 22H00 that I actually wanted to try one grain less loads as well in the P14 and so as to be ready to shoot next morning I went to garage to reload straight away. I saw I had forgotten the Varget on the table and wondered why ?
Thinking nothing of it further, I got the P14 components out, decanted some from the Hodgkin container (the only one I have "Varget" and reloaded a lighter load for next day.
The following day I shot the 54 gr and did not get the results I wanted, so I tried the lighter load and found the primer blew out. I checked everything and decided it was an anomaly that I would look into later. I shot next shot and it was not noticeably different, but primer was blown out again. MMMnnn? STOP>
When I got home I pulled the remaining cases and weighed the charge, 53 gr - that's correct. I measured the bullets, they were correct as well. I while trying to figure this out noticed that the powder was flakes ? I thought Varget was stick propellant?
So I got the container out, (the only Hodgkin I have - confident about that) and checked the propellant, yip flakes.
I was stumped.
I eventually decided to study the container, for warnings about something, anything, I was lost. The Varget worked every other load, why not at this load.
I read the back, I read the front and learnt along the way that the propellant was suitable for pistols, did not know that. :o
Then, only then, did I decide to read the name on the container again. Turns out that my only tin of import was not the only tin !
Remember the tin you were given !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the pistol propellant ??????????????????????????????
I did not even read the label - I have always only had one import, Varget.
I had loaded 53 gr of Longshot in 9 x .303 cases.
I can not believe that in the land of suing, USA, the two tins can be so identical, except for the name, in relatively small print. The containers are not color coded like PMP, same same, just the little name differs.
Now I know how strong a P14 action is.
They very different and yet so the same.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54011938717_20cb35978b_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qhRiCH)20240922_130608 (https://flic.kr/p/2qhRiCH) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54011939427_d23ced696e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qhRiQX)20240922_130558 (https://flic.kr/p/2qhRiQX) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Fortunately that turned out well. I'm sure there are actions that would not be quite so forgiving. Thanks for writing it up, serves to remind us that humans are inherently prone to FUBARS. My rule for reloading is that I completely clear and clean the bench and all my equipment including powder measures before every session and start by pulling my load data sheet for the cartridge. I then pull the components from the kas according to the recipe and tick them off. Infuriates guys who've seen me do it but I reckon its worth the bother.
Quick Load puts the pressure at 99000 PSI
What bullet weight and what speed did you get? My QL calculation goes off the clock at 200K psi.
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Sep 22, 2024, 06:02 PMWhat bullet weight and what speed did you get? My QL calculation goes off the clock at 200K psi.
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;D ;D ;D 175 gr bullet , I did not chroni first, I shot for a group and intended to use last cartridges # 4 - 5 to chroni.
I usually use one lowest load to chroni then shoot groups saving ammo for if I pull a shot. I then chroni last 1 - 2 rounds.
Glad that you are still with us!
Cast the chamber to check whether it got damaged, stretched or so.
Quote from: Treeman on Sep 22, 2024, 01:26 PMThey very different and yet so the same.
Sorry to have to tell you, but those two labels are completely different.
They are even different colors.
You need an eye test, like the rest of us had to do.
Quote from: Ds J on Sep 23, 2024, 07:12 AMGlad that you are still with us!
Cast the chamber to check whether it got damaged, stretched or so.
I'd be a bit iffy of that action now. The highest pressure I could find referenced for a 303 Brit proof load was 75k psi and early ones were in the high 60's. Tripodmvr's calc suggests that this could have been a multiple of that.
I'd be a bit iffy of that action now. The highest pressure I could find referenced for a 303 Brit proof load was 75k psi and early ones were in the high 60's. Tripodmvr's calc suggests that this could have been a multiple of that.
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P14 Action
Sorry to have to tell you, but those two labels are completely different.
They are even different colors.
You need an eye test, like the rest of us had to do.
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Yes I have to agree to that, but they are the same when you know what it is that you go, there is no SOMCHEM red - green - brown tin.
These are same same with some wording design change, some.
Knowing what you had on stock and knowing that u did not have any other propellant and picking tin up without much reading because of assumption - would not have been possible with S365 and MP 200, would have had too many, much difference.
Know of a guy that used S265 instead of S385. His 300WM was no more. They however salvaged the Mauser M98 action and built a new rifle on it. He was lucky to have had safety glasses on and only had a black eye to show for it. That was from the gas blast to the rear. I don't know how the 303 survived the high pressure.
Quote from: Treeman on Sep 24, 2024, 01:37 PM************************
P14 Action
As far as I can tell the proof cartridges weren't action specific and neither were the specs for duty ammunition. While the P14 is inherently a stronger action than the LE it appears to have been subject to the same proof pressures which were a fraction of what Tripodmvr came up with from QL. That action has been subjected to massive over pressures and I'd be very wary of taking the fact that it didn't grenade as a sign that it wasn't damaged.
Ja !- this is now a worry to me. Look, there ain't no way the action will be dumped, just not going to happen, but mmmnnn -Ya!
Been reading on the matter, but nothing concrete yet. My biggest worry is if the chamber dimensions have been altered by the massive bang, it does not seem so, but I will try have it spec'd.
The rifle sent the bullet down range and the primer blew out proper, I really do wonder if damage was done and if so what damage.
Get someone with NDT equipment on it. It should show cracks, fatigue, etc.
I guess the bolt head took the brunt of the overpressure, so I would begin there.
1. Headspace might have enlarged.
2. Locking lugs set back or might have cracked.
Miles out of my lane here but it seems unlikely to me that absolutely no damage would have been done. If the pressures really were above 200k PSI that would be north of 300% that of a proof round.
That may be true, but the old .303's all have plenty of vent holes which is not taken into account by quickload. 200kpsi pressure would definitely have resulted in a rapid unscheduled disassembly.
If there is no bulge in the barrel, and the locking lugs are not cracked, then I don't think the pressure got even close to these calculations.
If the pressure got to 99kpsi, the brass would have flowed so much that I doubt extraction would be possible.
A photo of the fired cases and the case heads in particular should tell some of the story.
Whatever we think, the rifle has to be checked by a competent gunsmith as per Tripod's post above.
Thats a large rifle primer, the hole is stretched wiiiide .
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54021111308_44c00882cd_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qiEjjQ)20240925_165355 (https://flic.kr/p/2qiEjjQ) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Bolt face and extractor all right? I once shot a 270 reload in my 7x64 by mistake. Battled to get the case out and broke the extractor. Luck was on my side and the gunsmith got a replacement.
Quote from: janfred on Sep 25, 2024, 01:13 PMThat may be true, but the old .303's all have plenty of vent holes which is not taken into account by quickload. 200kpsi pressure would definitely have resulted in a rapid unscheduled disassembly.
If there is no bulge in the barrel, and the locking lugs are not cracked, then I don't think the pressure got even close to these calculations.
If the pressure got to 99kpsi, the brass would have flowed so much that I doubt extraction would be possible.
A photo of the fired cases and the case heads in particular should tell some of the story.
Whatever we think, the rifle has to be checked by a competent gunsmith as per Tripod's post above.
"but the old .303's all have plenty of vent hole"
This was a P14 - similar to a Mauser - NO idea where "vent-holes" would be in this action ?
I am also not sure why there should have been a - "bulge in the barrel" ?
I also have no idea how Treeman would not have noticed a difference in sound and recoil ?
Those cases shown exhibit EXTREME pressure
IF you had looked at this post of mine ...
.308 to the limit (https://allgunstuff.co.za/index.php?topic=612.0)
You would have noticed that they took these .308 loads up to 103.785 psi ( ESTIMATED )
All approximations of course as they did not use any proper pressure test equipment
However ... brass was easily extracted and there was no "brass-flow"
Pushing the 308 Win into 300 Win Mag Territory (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions) (https://ultimatereloader.com/2024/03/24/insane-performance-pushing-the-308-win-into-300-win-mag-territory-bat-machine-alpha-munitions/)
Without proper test equipment and careful measuring - EVERYTHING is just pure speculation and thumb suck
Would a gunsmith sign a no-disclaimer on certifying this rifle back into service ?
Personally I would scrap it !
IMG_20241014_024513.jpg
A pierced primer the gas escapes through the small hole in the bolt body. If the case ruptures the gas escapes via the ejector slot. Also around the bolt head
IMG_20241014_024616.jpg
This hole lines up with the bolt relief hole.
Alpha Munitions cases are unique in that the case head is much harder than standard brass cases, hence the ability to withstand much higher pressure without flowing. They would not have had the same results with Lapua or Hornady brass.
The amount of thought and learn from past experience in just those two pictures - astounding.
Quote from: Treeman on Oct 13, 2024, 10:00 PMThe amount of thought and learn from past experience in just those two pictures - astounding.
The golden question of course ...
DID any gas flow out / escape from these vent holes ?
DID Treeman notice any gas escaping from the vent holes ?
IF not ? can we assume that the rifle / action did NOT experience an over pressure event ?
At the sorts of pressures mentioned ( assumed ) I would find that quite strange ?
If you have sulphur, you can do a chamber cast. Quick and easy, Google how.
The dimensions you get from that are an accurate reflection of actual, but that doesn't tell you if the integrity is compromised.
You have a duty to ensure that the action is still safe, or scrap. For the sake of everyone who will pull the trigger on that rifle, now or in future.
Send it in for testing, and if that's too expensive, scrap it.
It's just a thing, things break and can be replaced. Body parts and life, not.
Quote from: big5ifty on Oct 14, 2024, 11:34 AMIf you have sulphur, you can do a chamber cast. Quick and easy, Google how.
I've tried the sulphur method recently and it was incredibly effective. Stinky but effective.
Quote from: big5ifty on Oct 14, 2024, 11:34 AMYou have a duty to ensure that the action is still safe, or scrap. For the sake of everyone who will pull the trigger on that rifle, now or in future.
Send it in for testing, and if that's too expensive, scrap it.
Couldn't agree more. Something that has been exposed to conditions so far wide of it's design parameters is suspect. Given it's a rifle action and if its been compromised it's got the potential to cause some real physical harm.
Judging by the photo of the case heads, it was definitely way overpressure for the primer pockets to be enlarged that much. An engineer could probably do some calculations to estimate the pressure. The scuff marks also show that some brass flowed into the ejector slot. Also some flowed to the unsupported rim area downwards. I am really surprised that the cases extracted easily.
I suspect that the energy absorbed by the flowing brass saved the day.
Definitely need to have it inspected by a competent gunsmith.
The chamber was oversize, a problem we were going to look into. I have now noted that the shot brass will not fit into an Epps sizing die.
Perhaps that answers some questions without a gunsmith.
Quote from: Treeman on Oct 14, 2024, 05:26 PMThe chamber was oversize, a problem we were going to look into. I have now noted that the shot brass will not fit into an Epps sizing die.
Perhaps that answers some questions without a gunsmith.
Perhaps ?
But .. perhaps not the most important ones ?