I have been wanting to hunt using a less than adequate caliber for some time now, but morals and ethics have stopped that from happening.
Cody too has been wanting to hunt a Impala with a .22 and I have been telling him its wrong. I have heard myself saying things like "its wrong to do so if you have a better means of killing" - "its a living thing my boy, not a fun and games toy" ETc ETC. BUT ! still the challenge and thought of "I can do it" remains.
Cody has his first rifle still, a ruger .233 with a 20 inch barrel and it is now our cheap shooter which gets just a bit less than the .22 down the barrel - like 100 shots a go. This .223 is fed bulk buy Hornady bullets which I buy at a 1000 per purchase, V Max and Sierra GK 63 gr bullets. The VMax bullets were used for vermin control and the GK bullets for a 7 year olds first animals, Duiker and Duiker and a small w/hog or 3.
I have tuned the loads for all 3 bullets to be within 5 mm horizontally and 4.5 cm vertically - the VMax is 4.5 + and the GK is 3 cm + at 100 m
On this last hunt I took my old 303 along as my bit of a challenge rifle ;D , but when we got there there was a issue, the scope seems to have died and I can not hit a A 4 page at 100 m. 10 shots later i got the message, scope is ISM, not gonna fix that here and now.
I looked at the 223 and tried to recall all the game shot with it and the results, I reasoned about shot placement and a hole through heart is a whole through heart, its dead - you do not get degrees of dead.
So to cut it short, I shot a impala at about 80 - 100 m. The shot was perhaps a bit further back than perfect, but far from a bad shot(hanging in photo it looks further back than when leg is in normal position).The shot also was not a good shot, by far. High and back end of both lungs. The 7-08 or .270 would have been no more than 30 m run same shot.
When the shot sounded, I heard the hit and watched the herd run off, they did an away and cross back in front of me 200 m down run off. Somewhere in the run the ram disappeared, or did it ? - Not sure?
I called the dog up and started a track, but the wind made her do frustrating things, and many a time I thought she was just doing dog things, playing. Going 150 m forward was a 600 m snaking back forth matter, down wind - across, up wind, across, almost back to start :o
The animal was found 150 m max from POI and it was lying down. The animal jumped up and darted when we got to it, this run went about 700 m further with a clear by eye blood trail being left along the way. Cody jogged ahead with the dog and I did a by eye follow up after the animal. It was found standing and Cody shot it again - F**** up my perfect meat shot animal with his 7 mm meat mincer. :-X
My shot was as far back as feasible, it was also only taken when I could enter and exit without hitting a leg, the 7 mm just blew it all apart .
Point of post.
If one looks in the photo, the 5.56 GK bullet exited at about 12 mm or more diameter, it hit both lungs far back - a shot that using an appropriate caliber would caused far quicker death.
The "enough gun" statement is quite clear to me.
I have not included an entrance photo as there is nothing to see, no hole so to say.
Exit wound with 7 mm damage almost visible to left.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54079883944_20e17ea366_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qoRxo9)20241019_224420 (https://flic.kr/p/2qoRxo9) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Exit wound, not bad meat damage with 7 mm results seen to left.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54079883924_6af613c305_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qoRxnN)20241020_094940 (https://flic.kr/p/2qoRxnN) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
Entrance from inside with finger through hole.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54078682267_aa00e0630e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2qoKoaz)20241020_095018 (https://flic.kr/p/2qoKoaz) by David Frank Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/183810052@N07/), on Flickr
This is my exact gripe about hunting with smaller calibers. It is a general rule, that the less damage done, the longer the animal takes to die. There is no cut off, its a relationship that exists, and the hunter must choose what is an acceptable level of suffering vs recoil and meat damage.
For some the cut off is .243win, others 6.5 Creedmoore and others think 7mm is the minimum.
I have very limited knowledge of the efficacy of the 6,5mm when it comes to killing ability. From other sources it seems to do well up to hartebeest size game, but even with a 6,5PRC the quick kill rate on a Blue WB seems to be lacking. From my own experience the 270, 7mm and .30 calibres perform well on the bigger antelope. I have shot two Impala with my 223 using 53gr Barnes TSX. I broke the spine on one and killed the other with a heart/lung shot. Penetration was through the chest to under the skin. Very little blood and luckily it was fairly open and I spotted the carcass whilst searching. With Impala I will in future not use less than a 243. My go to rifles are the 7x64 and 30-06 for bushveld hunting and I stick to monometal bullets.
I will so to say, for research purposes shoot another Impala with the 223, I can not make any deductions from one animal. As clear as the result is, I still find it hard to believe.
Cody and I did a decent look into this animal and something he said made sense. "Dad the bullet damaged the lungs enough to cause it to die, it didn't destroy the lungs killing it" This ties up with my old statement on Gun Site regarding calibers and bullet types. " The wound caused it to die, it did not kill the animal, only caused it to die" Cody may have heard me say this on occasion before.
My next question is, if I had used, say a V-Max bullet, would it have killed faster than the hold together well and exit Game King bullet ?
Quote from: Treeman on Oct 22, 2024, 01:40 PMMy next question is, if I had used, say a V-Max bullet, would it have killed faster than the hold together well and exit Game King bullet ?
You might have 80% good shot placement and DRT kills. If you however hit bone then your quarry might not be found with the superficial wound that will be created due to bullet fragmentation. I would rather use a stronger built that will damage the lungs and possibly arteries and the heart. I would still advise a larger calibre and not take a risky shot with a 223 bullet (aka ertjiepit, pisdruppel)
Gregor Woods is said to prefer his 375 H&H to hunt. When asked why, he apparently states that things tend to fall over.
Shooting animals with a sub-optimal calibre when you don't have to strikes me as en ethically questionable thing to do.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Oct 22, 2024, 05:26 PMShooting animals with a sub-optimal calibre when you don't have to strikes me as en ethically questionable thing to do.
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The subject, terminal ballistics cause and affect and its related matters have been of great interest to me for more than 20 years. In my search for answers I have collect boards of recovered bullets and information, which I use often to advocate bullets and caliber choice to others. I am involved with the development of a monolithic bullet at present and two in the past, one of which is on the market at present. (likely the biggest manufacturer)
I am involved at present in the development of an lead core bullet and have been before with other makes. All these bullets after bench and target trials need terminal performance measured many times and many ways. We have just realized that the monolithic bullet we working on works wonderfully at the range, but has an habit of not working on an animal at unpredictable intervals. Deepening, widening and even shaping the front hole had great to dismally ineffective affect to consistency. It was later reasoned that the only thing left was the material and that it seems is the answer, the alloy is 100 x more important than the shape or the exspansion hole it appears.
Back to shooting the Impala, I want to know a lot of things, things like you mentioned and Oom Drie about fragmenting bullets versus penetration bullets or both like the GS Custom bullets (which I also tested and opinioned over the years).
Gerrie claimed his .223 bullets were more than adequate for Impala and Blesbuck, I only tested .270 and .458 back then, so I do not know.
The Sierra Game King at about 2900 fps entered and exited behind the shoulders.
I do not believe it would have made it through one side shoulder and do enough damage.(I am not willing to test this on a free range animal)
I do believe the GS Custom could enter and exit a large Impala both shoulders, but what would the internal damage be ? Would it be enough for a clean kill ?
The Americans use .223 for Whitetail ?
Using a "enough caliber and weight" bullet may kill it more outright, but one can not measure performance after the point of enough. We now come to the point of which smaller caliber bullet kills faster, this or that ? why ? and this can then be applied to the larger caliber.
I am saying, a cannon ball through the chest kills a man outright, with this we know a kg of steel kills a man dead, we can not measure if a softer steel or shaped ball kills him deader.
If we use a 100 gr ball he dies after 10 minutes. We test a softer ball and find he dies after 6 minutes and then a expanding ball and so on, we can measure the results - terminal ballistics.
I have not really sat down and gone through this shot and its results yet, but I believe my conclusions will be pretty much as suggested above and written before by others.
I am interest in the application of this caliber for "semi culling" where one goes out at night mainly, and removes a few animals from a herd, say small farm or state kind of application. Head shots are not a consideration because a head shot wounding on an estate or golf coarse will make you very famous very fast.
So I am wondering, if I made a .223 bullet that was soft, but not fragmenting, that flattened but held together, would it have an application ? - would it work ?
Like most of these gun, shooting, hunting thoughts, this will likely come to a no usable information ending.
Perhaps I can deduct enough from the one animal shot, perhaps not. The subject and its implementation is still a fascinating matter to me.
Another question nagging me? If we used a, say 100 g .223 bullet, would it be more effective ? Say a soft 100 g bullet that folded over easily at 100 g velocities - if it expanded to half its length, that would make for a large surface area indeed.
Would that make the .223 a better killer or just a more easily through and through caliber?
How much of the inefficiency of the .223 can be attributed to 55 g bullets and how much attributed to .223 diameter ?
I don't get the motivation. Why would one want to use a calibre like 223 on African game animals? Beyond satisfying ones curiosity I'm not getting the potential benefits.
Speed kills. Point. That is due to the shockwave, or something along that line. My brother worked on a game farm and shot everything with a 25-06. Why? Because the animals tended to die quickly. In another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum. This must count for something.
Larger holes kill as well. That is due to massive blood loss.
Combine the two - large holes at high speed (338, 375 etc) it makes for very fast kills.
The part that it always comes back to is damage - destruction kills.
Now to keep the damage contained, like would it not be nice if one could have a coke can size peripheral meat damage and a nice clean kill, or even better a nice hole through animal and no bloody bruised mess at all around it.
From this one .223 animal it would look like bruising is related to caliber, the wider the bore the wider the bruising. The bruising was there alright, but it seems proportional.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Oct 22, 2024, 07:54 PMI don't get the motivation. Why would one want to use a calibre like 223 on African game animals? Beyond satisfying ones curiosity I'm not getting the potential benefits.
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In the pursuit of a better bullet, caliber etc, do we follow velocity, or do we follow caliber, or is it mass that counts ?
If a quick kill is all that is required, recoil, meat damage, economy did not matter it would be easy - build a 70 cal vehicle mounted hunting rifle.
Since there are woman that hunt, children, smaller persons and propellant, copper, lead cost by weight. Since carrying big guns around ain't fun and blowing your meat to pieces is not the goal, there are folk that have an interest in better bullets, less recoil and less meat damage, thats how we got to bonded bullets and heavier or lighter bullets, high SD smaller bullets that have replaced the 8 mm and the .375 and the 30 06 in many applications. The new generation 6.5 and 7 mm bullets that outshoot their bigger parent cases, all derived from field observations.
I admit I am at hobby level in my inquiries and tests, but you asked why.
I do it because I am interested, very interested.
In 1995 to about 1999 all I had was a musgrave .223 and older wealthier associates that allowed me to tag along.I had recovered tens of animals for these corporate men before I shot my first own animal. Impala, Bushbuck and Kudu all tracked down and ended with a .223
One day a Telkom big boy had big clients from all over the country down for a Kudu hunt, 3 days later they all had nothing, so Johan said they cant go home empty handed and I should go shoot them something. " You know that gun I see hey? Can you shoot some Kudu?" So he and I in Land Cruiser went to get Kudu for the clients.
That was my first hunt so to say, instead of tapping on the roof and trying to show the client the animal, i got top tap and shoot. I got 3 kudu in about the same hours, look away and behind ear to far side eye (it was a game farm and easy shooting).
I still remember to this day, every . 223 wound had a jacket in it, core separation - that's where it all started, the interest.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Oct 22, 2024, 07:54 PMI don't get the motivation. Why would one want to use a calibre like 223 on African game animals? Beyond satisfying ones curiosity I'm not getting the potential benefits.
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Oaf, I have hunted a really lot of animals now, and so to speak it has become a matter of if I see it it is very likely a matter of if I want to or not - not if I can or not. That may sound show offish, but not meant as that, its just practice has been very available to me.
I have started handgun hunting to up the challenge, this is also a matter of why if there are better weapons than a .44 black hawk.
I have moved way back now on the rifles and I am working on hunting using only lead cast bullets. I am busy with a bloke to try make a better bullet there as well, but again, why use lead at 1200 fps when same rifle can launch a mono at 3000 fps.
Oaf, I can not answer that question even to myself in a way I like, I need, like, enjoy, live for the hunt and the challenge. I am and have always been an animals rights for lack of better words kinda guy, I hate tim Wells for what he represents, yet is my slightly different approach any better? Tim wells hunts stuff with blow pipes and other unethical ways, I really do dislike him, but then i say a bow is OK ?
So I have no valid answer to you.
The answer lies in the challenge, but with borders. See if I can do it - even with a marginal calibre - because I know how to and am also capable of doing so under most given circumstances.
If that particular shot had been where it was intended, the animal would have expired much sooner.
Quote from: Ds J on Oct 22, 2024, 08:07 PMIn another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.
Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.
Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the
momentum.
On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the
energy.
Quote from: BBCT on Oct 23, 2024, 09:40 PMQuote from: Ds J on Oct 22, 2024, 08:07 PMIn another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.
Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.
Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.
On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.
This is the reason I didn't become an engineer ;)
Thanks.
Quote from: BBCT on Oct 23, 2024, 09:40 PMQuote from: Ds J on Oct 22, 2024, 08:07 PMIn another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.
Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.
Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.
On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.
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Why must you let facts get in the way of a good post ?
Just nod your head sagely in agreement like the rest of the guys around the fire. I look clever, the guys all look like they understand and the subject lives to become another braai's deep discussion.
Quote from: Treeman on Oct 22, 2024, 06:52 PMt willing to test this on a free range animal)
Head shots are not a consideration because a head shot wounding on an estate or golf coarse will make you very famous very fast.
I would think an "escaped" body shot wounded animal with blood dripping would be a far more - career ending - event ?
I do believe that most professional culling people prefer head shots ?
Lots of shooting experience and from close range and a dead rest.
Quote from: Treeman on Oct 22, 2024, 06:58 PMAnother question nagging me? If we used a, say 100 g .223 bullet,
How much of the inefficiency of the .223 can be attributed to 55 g bullets and how much attributed to .223 diameter ?
I am not aware of any readily available 100Gr bullet for the .223 ( .224 )
I think about 75 - 80gr is the largest ?
How long is it and will it fit the action - without going too deep into the case ?
You will also need a very fast twist barrel
Why not try and find a few and test ?
There are a number of other cases / cartridges that use .224 bullets eg 22 Creedmoor
(http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/224argrendel.jpg)
New .224 Cartridge for AR Match Rifles (https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/05/new-224-cartridge-for-ar-match-rifles/)
(https://hammerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/22083HH-510x340.jpg)
.224 Cal-83gr Hammer Hunter™ (https://hammerbullets.com/product/224-cal-83gr-hammer-hunter/)
You will now have to add a few more variables to your calculations
Quote from: Treeman on Oct 24, 2024, 07:42 AMQuote from: BBCT on Oct 23, 2024, 09:40 PMQuote from: Ds J on Oct 22, 2024, 08:07 PMIn another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.
Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.
Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.
On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.
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Why must you let facts get in the way of a good post ?
Just nod your head sagely in agreement like the rest of the guys around the fire. I look clever, the guys all look like they understand and the subject lives to become another braai's deep discussion.
I consider myself reprimanded ;-)
Which is the more important for the purpose of hunting, if one leaned far to one side of the spectrum?. A heavy bullet, a fast bullet or a very big bullet.
I read all the above and came back to that same question. For the sake of clarity, I will give 4 examples I think will stir debate.
55 gr expanding solid .223 bullet at 3800 fps (Shot as an example of speed kills).
220 gr 30 cal expanding solid at 1650 fps (Shot as an example of very heavy for that caliber).
500 gr 50 cal expanding solid at 1050 fps (shot as a subsonic big bore the guys mention).
600 gr 70 cal lead ball at 850 fps (shot as example of very heavy, very slow).
I went with a hunter once in Durban and I saw him shoot 2 big bushpig with a .357 lever gun and some very heavy bullets that he had made himself.
Quote from: Shotofrank on Nov 03, 2024, 09:36 PM55 gr expanding solid .223 bullet at 3800 fps (Shot as an example of speed kills).
220 gr 30 cal expanding solid at 1650 fps (Shot as an example of very heavy for that caliber).
500 gr 50 cal expanding solid at 1050 fps (shot as a subsonic big bore the guys mention).
600 gr 70 cal lead ball at 850 fps (shot as example of very heavy, very slow).
You forgot the 270 ;)
Serious though - any hunting done at 300m with a 223 on larger animals is just stupid. The chance of a wounded animal is just too great.
In firearm terms, the last three (220gr, 500gr and 600gr) bullets will work magnificently on shorter ranges, but even at 100m or 150m those to heavy ones need to be launched like mortars which out them out of the equation. It leaves the 220gr bullet to do the job.
Shooting at animals with an iffy ammunition choice because you want to try it out is poor form. No different to hunting drunk. Causing unnecessary suffering to satisfy your curiosity or to stroke your ego makes you a doos.
The video is a poll to get the members to choose an elk cartridge. For very good reasons the final 3 are the 7mm Rem mag, 280AI and the 300WM. All medium sized cartridges that have proven their efficacy in the USA hunting field. No wonder I choose my 30-06 and 7x64 as my go to hunting rifles.
https://youtu.be/2hLA-QnAokI
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Nov 04, 2024, 09:36 AMThe video is a poll to get the members to choose an elk cartridge. For very good reasons the final 3 are the 7mm Rem mag, 280AI and the 300WM. All medium sized cartridges that have proven their efficacy in the USA hunting field. No wonder I choose my 30-06 and 7x64 as my go to hunting rifles.
https://youtu.be/2hLA-QnAokI
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You only chose the 30 06 as you do not have an .270 Win
Quote from: oafpatroll on Nov 03, 2024, 10:36 PMShooting at animals with an iffy ammunition choice because you want to try it out is poor form. No different to hunting drunk. Causing unnecessary suffering to satisfy your curiosity or to stroke your ego makes you a doos.
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You sound a lot like me regarding animals and cages, spears and captivity and circus's. I think you got me a bit wrong with the .223 matter Oaf. I have no intention of experimenting or challenging myself with smaller and smaller calibers etc.
I do how ever want to know. I want to know can I allow a 12 year old girl to hunt duiker with her .223 ? can she shoot springbuck, Impala or small warthog, or is it a matter of my original long stated sentiment - the .223 is not a hunting caliber. I have and still believe that the 243 is not to be advised as an hunting rifle,even if just springbuck its just to borderline.
Does a 5.56 mm hole kill that much less effectively than a 6.86 hole ?. One mm. Apparently that is the case.
Is it the bullet weight or the hole ? Does velocity negate some of the weight loss or does the size of the hole just beat them all.
I want to know, need to know, because this is what I do once - twice a month 80 % of the time with someone else shooting. When we go remove an injured Impala out a group at night, can I use a .223 to shoot it at night with a spotlight, I do not like headshots, for your reasons.
1. Calibre - a bullet normally doubles in frontal size as it expands
.224 = .448 = 11.4mm
.243 = .486 = 12.3mm
6.5 = 13mm
.277 = .554 = 14.1mm
7.2 = 14.4mm
7.82 = 15,6mm
As can be seen and from practical experience as from the 270 the damage done by the bullet increases so as to be an important factor.
2. A friend of mine taught some youngsters to hunt game up to Impala size with his 223. He used Goodnel 55gr monolithic hollow points and reported nil game lost. The monos have the penetration ability that can reach both lungs.
3. Shooting at night with a spot light you get up close to the animal and headshots become feasible. Here a cup and core bullet will cause sufficient damage on smaller game to ensure one shot kills.
4. For many years the 243 was designated as the entry level hunting rifle. It punches way above its weight and I have shot many springbuck with it. It is also more effective on Impala and blesbuck. My experience was with mono bullets.
5. With the use of silencers youngsters can easily step up to heavier calibres that provide more lethality.
Quote from: Treeman on Nov 04, 2024, 03:27 PMQuote from: oafpatroll on Nov 03, 2024, 10:36 PMShooting at animals with an iffy ammunition choice because you want to try it out is poor form. No different to hunting drunk. Causing unnecessary suffering to satisfy your curiosity or to stroke your ego makes you a doos.
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You sound a lot like me regarding animals and cages, spears and captivity and circus's. I think you got me a bit wrong with the .223 matter Oaf. I have no intention of experimenting or challenging myself with smaller and smaller calibers etc.
I do how ever want to know. I want to know can I allow a 12 year old girl to hunt duiker with her .223 ? can she shoot springbuck, Impala or small warthog, or is it a matter of my original long stated sentiment - the .223 is not a hunting caliber. I have and still believe that the 243 is not to be advised as an hunting rifle,even if just springbuck its just to borderline.
Does a 5.56 mm hole kill that much less effectively than a 6.86 hole ?. One mm. Apparently that is the case.
Is it the bullet weight or the hole ? Does velocity negate some of the weight loss or does the size of the hole just beat them all.
I want to know, need to know, because this is what I do once - twice a month 80 % of the time with someone else shooting. When we go remove an injured Impala out a group at night, can I use a .223 to shoot it at night with a spotlight, I do not like headshots, for your reasons.
Understood. For the record I wasn't accusing you. It was a general observation by someone who gets mouthy at people in the field who treat animals with disrespect and cruelty. In the hands of someone who shoots a lot of animals an 'iffy' calibre isn't the same as for a typist muppet like me.
A 223 can kill - very fast, very efficiently, but with the right shot placement.
'n Goeie vriend van my skiet amper alles met sy 223, en hy het sy kinders ook leer jag met dieselfde 223. Nogtans verkies hy 'n groter kaliber vir groter wild, want daar is net meer ruimte indien iets sou skeefloop.
To answer your question regarding the girl, please consider the following: one has to take her psyche and her capabilities into account. If she has been practicing with the 223 for the past year for her first animal, and the animals are not too wild or shy, let her use it. Maybe stand by with another rifle. Giving her another rifle to hunt with has the potential to throw her off her game and causing a wounded animal, where her own rifle would have meant a kil shot.
Understood. For the record I wasn't accusing you. It was a general observation by someone who gets mouthy at people in the field who treat animals with disrespect and cruelty. In the hands of someone who shoots a lot of animals an 'iffy' calibre isn't the same as for a typist muppet like me.
[/quote]
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And this why i want to know. The last thing I need is for little Mary Anne to shoot, loose and be put off for life because her first buck mad e noises, or simply bled some and ran off.
Terminal ballistics has been a fascination of mine since my first Kudu (3 in a hour or two) with a .223.
I actually almost have like a mental chart in my head - dead, deader and deaderer, would never be able to explain it, but even mono bullets versus cup and core have a spot on the mental chart. The mono bullets kill slower than the cup and core, but that changes the smaller the caliber becomes, but mono's get better the bigger the caliber becomes.
Load up some of those heavy bullets - that will work with the rifles twist rate
Make up a bullet test bed / stop with a number of ( wet and soaked ) old telephone directories ( or similar )
Do some accuracy and penetration tests - will give a good approximation of effect on game
Get as close as possible before taking shot - from a comfortable steady rest
Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.
Quote from: Treeman on Nov 05, 2024, 04:47 PMWet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.
Testing a bit better to give some sort of idea rather than shooting into the unknown ?
Be interesting to do a comparison
Post photos ...
I was looking at loads today and this came to light, I wonder how relevant my thoughts are?
I have a 2555 fps load for the 7 -08 154 gr bullet, but feel its too slow, I want the 2670 fps node. Someone said would the animal even know the difference ?
The bullet arrives at 300 m with about 1500 ftlb energy, thats about the same as a 60 gr .223 bullet at 50 yards. Right, so its almost like guys kill kudu with a 223 when they shoot them at 300 m with a 7 mm 154 gr bullet shot at 2555 fps. If you take the same energy 223 and shoot a kudu at 50 yards you will very likely have a very different result in regard to affect. (Leave CNS shots and bullet construction out of this). Both bullets arrived with same energy, one 5.5 mm, the other 1.5 mm larger, the one kills more often than not, the other is not even considered ethical, why ?.
The second thing I saw was that the difference between the 2555 fps bullet and the 2670 fps was about 150 ft lbs, the same as a .22 - which in its own right can kill things. So by losing a 150 fps, you lost a whole .22 in power.
Dunno where I am going with this, but I found this worth thinking about and enjoyed the findings.
I posted the numbers from memory, but they close enough I guess.
A wise old man explained it like this when I was young: for argument's sake, and exaggerated to make it clearer, one could ask whether you would prefer to be hit by a train at 5km/h or the tip of a whip at the sound of speed? Both carry the same amount of energy (mass x speed), but in different terms. The train flattens a house whereas the whip doesn't even make a mark. On the other hand, the whip splits skin and the train gives you a gentle shove.
The amount of mass in a bullet makes a very big difference in its performance.
There are probably good reasons why most of the old DG cartridges, irrespective of caliber, sent their heaviest bullets at around 2200 fps.
I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.
Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?
Quote from: big5ifty on Jan 09, 2025, 12:13 PMI once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.
A Brown Bess musket with the prescribed charge was barely supersonic and pass throughs of multiple human targets in seried ranks were not uncommon. I have very little doubt that a bullet of reasonable hardness and equivalent mass could go through a kudu.
Quote from: Treeman on Jan 09, 2025, 12:57 PMWould you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?
The speed is not that important; the mass is way more important for penetration. Very low speed has to do a bullet failing to open. If the shot is accurate it will still be a clean kill. I shoot 180gr at 2440fps and it clears a kudu at 300m. A 308 with 165gr/168gr bullets kills equally well. Therefore, I assume that the 154gr bullet will do the job. The higher speed will improve the trajectory.
If 140gr and 150gr 6.5mm bullets (6.5mm Swedish) can kill at roughly 2600fps, your 154gr will kill too.
See if you can get the accurate node without too much pressure. Then you cab decide whether it is necessary.
I find that firearms often perform best when they are close to their maximum charge. The only reason I can think of why, is that the case fill is better, leading to a more consistent powder burn. Looking at the data for that bullet weight with a 22' barrel at node #6, velocity is 2550ft/sec. This is an overly 'comfortable' load. However, the next node #5 is at 2660ft/sec, but that is very close to the pressure limits for the caliber. If you went for a slightly lighter 150gr bullet, then the chances of the load being safe are better.
I would try it out. I don't think you will blow you gun up at 2660, but just see if you start having pressure signs like an abrupt recoil, stiff bolt handle, flattened primers etc then don't.
Like I said, its marginal, but probably not fatal, your gun will tell you if you should turn back.
Rifle just shoots so 243 like at 2555 fps, its like a silenced .223, I am thinking the added enjoyment, accuracy and confidence is perhaps worth the 140 fps loss.
Plus + PLUS, I forgot, this is supposed to be an Impala specific rifle load, a load for reduced meat damage on Impala at under 200 m, usually 80 - 140 m.
I think that answers that question, in my enthusiasm I forgot why this all started out ------Impala
Remember this post ? This is what started this rifle, and I got carried away again chasing velocity.
https://allgunstuff.co.za/index.php?topic=741.0
As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small
Quote from: janfred on Jan 11, 2025, 02:52 PMAs for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small
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almost half less bullet weight would be a consideration in this matter.