Guys, I have always been very stingy with lube, do not know why but it is something I need to watch myself with.
I have no issue with down stroke of die, but even with a bit of lube in case neck I find the extraction stroke to be very hard and "Must Be Incorrect", I need force on occasion to pull the button through the case neck.
How do you lube a case neck on the shoulder where issue is ?
Is this just a matter of lubrication or what?
Quote from: Treeman on Dec 31, 2024, 02:22 PMIs this just a matter of lubrication or what?
Acquire the appropriate measuring tools ...
Get yourself a set of .. SMALL HOLE GAUGES
Measure the inside diameter of the neck of your reloading die
Measure the button with a micrometer
Measure he ID of the neck of a piece of fired brass
Get some factory rounds measure a loaded round at the neck
Use a puller to pull the bullet - measure the OD / ID of the neck of that pulled round
The bullet should be a standard set measurement so use that as a "yardstick"
Measure everything up carefully and see what you get
Without proper accurate measurement ,,, everything is just a guess
I had the hard up strokes with my 222, it was due to donuts.
The hard strokes with my 308 was hardened brass.
It's a common issue.
The shape of the expander ball contributes to the problem as well. Some, like the Hornady are a long oval, some are more of a ball.
The new Lee decapping rod is a big improvement on all other designs.
Graphite lube helps a lot, Redding has a little container with spherical media and graphite, you just dunk the case neck in there before sizing.
The only way to eliminate the problem is to remove the decapping rod from your sizing die and neck expand with a mandrel.
Quote from: Ds J on Jan 01, 2025, 09:31 AMI had the hard up strokes with my 222, it was due to donuts.
The hard strokes with my 308 was hardened brass.
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Yes I have had both issues before, this time I can disregard these two mentioned. Cases were 3 x shot, so rather new, they were trimmed, annealed etc
Cases were good, but I will doughnut check anyway
The only way to eliminate the problem is to remove the decapping rod from your sizing die and neck expand with a mandrel.
[/quote]
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Do I understand correctly. Size with no rod, then run a mandrel down neck ?
Where are these mandrels to be bought ?
Sudami (https://sudamix-ring.co.za/product-category/neck-expanding/)
I can recommend these. Gerrie made a custom for the BMG for me.
Quality, service and price. All great.
Now you'll get involved in discussions as to how much neck tension. I'd suggest 2 thou under bullet diameter, and crimp after seating, for hunting rounds.
Quote from: big5ifty on Jan 02, 2025, 12:09 PMSudami (https://sudamix-ring.co.za/product-category/neck-expanding/)
I can recommend these. Gerrie made a custom for the BMG for me.
Quality, service and price. All great.
Now you'll get involved in discussions as to how much neck tension. I'd suggest 2 thou under bullet diameter, and crimp after seating, for hunting rounds.
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Thnk you, wonder what this lot is gonna cost :o
I haven't looked at the Sudami site for a long while and was amazed a their range, it's huge. Fantastic to see an SA manufacturing outfit growing like this.
So I will buy these tonight, soon as I have a confirmation on size.
I do not want a crimp !!!!
Do I still buy .002 under bullet size ?
What is the difference between the two expander body dies - one is called a lap rig?
The normal expanding body is what you need.
If you use monolithics, go for 3 thou under, if you're using lead core then 2 thou under.
There is no practical advantage in going smaller, because either the bullet is going to expand [ deform ] the neck back up again, or the neck is going to swage the bullet shank down.
The limit of elastic neck expansion to where plastic deformation starts to occur is between 1 and 2 thou.
I just finished decapping 300 .308 cases. Oom Drie told me about his olive oil as resizing lube days and gave me some more of his extensive knowledge on reloading.
So tonight I took our Pure Coconut spray and cook to the garage. 100% coconut guaranteed !
I stood 80 cases upright and sprayed from top at 45 degree angle both sides. 1 second each side, less than a pans needs by 4 x. The cases sized like wow !, better than Lee paste and about as good as Imperial wax.
I washed the cases 2 x in boiling water and sunlight soap and rinsed 2 x in boiling water ( tap hot only water).
I am really amazed, a bit more cleaning effort needed, but ! Must be at least 4 x cheaper than conventional lube.
I am thinking to do the case cleaning wash as my lube cleaning wash next time. Sunlight Citric Acid and warm water - clean lube and case one step ?
Big5ifty, please confirm :
.270 = .275 mandrel
.308 = ..306 mandrel
7 mm = .282 mandrel
.223 = .221 mandrel
I really do not wanna screw order up.
I can't tell you which size is going to be right for you, but 2 thou under bullet size is a sensible choice for those calibers.
Quote from: big5ifty on Jan 03, 2025, 10:02 AMI can't tell you which size is going to be right for you, but 2 thou under bullet size is a sensible choice for those calibers.
It is very easy finding the dimensions of the bullet - then subtract whatever dimension you think is correct
HOWEVER
You have no idea of the dimensions of the case [ neck ] ?
This guy will help -
but - you need to buy the tools ( as I mentioned )
You CANNOT work out which size mandrel is correct if you do not know what the case neck wall thickness is !
You also need to try a few different sizes to find the optimum measurement / optimum mandrel
You will need a TUBE Micrometer
What the inside diameter of the neck is - what the outside diameter of the neck is
You will need a set of small hole gauges , a micrometer , and pin hole gauges
ALL these dimensions vary from manufacturer to manufacturer - even between lots.
Do whatever you want - the above is the correct way to do this
Quote from: oafpatroll on Jan 02, 2025, 02:55 PMI haven't looked at the Sudami site for a long while and was amazed a their range, it's huge. Fantastic to see an SA manufacturing outfit growing like this.
There is also this one -
also SA made(https://www.impactproshop.net/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/uploads/2021/07/mandrel-1.png.webp)
APW Expander Mandrel Set (https://www.impactproshop.net/product/expander-mandrel/)
Quote from: Newton on Jan 03, 2025, 03:28 PMDo whatever you want - the above is the correct way to do this
... if you use a bushing die for neck sizing. Which, for best results, also requires neck turning.
Using a bushing die with turned necks is usually reserved for a custom chamber, where the tolerance is so small that an un-turned neck is not going to chamber.
If you size with the expander ball removed, then a mandrel, it greatly simplifies everything, you don't care what the neck thickness is, and you don't care if the neck is thicker on one side or the other, ie : no neck turning required, for hunting rifles with a factory chamber. There is no need to calculate anything, or measure anything.
Using a bushing die and using a mandrel are not done together in practice, it's either or.
The bushing die sets the neck diameter, based on the neck thickness, which can only be done properly with a turned neck, so there is no point in using a mandrel as well.
There is SAAMI - and - then there is reality
NO two chambers are going to be exactly the same - or - be in the same range of tolerances
Take a fired case and measure it - compare to SAAMI
Even better do a chamber cast
IF you like or strive for accuracy
A case with unequal neck thickness may well chamber .. but how will it shoot ?
I cannot see any reason for reloading if one is not going to use the opportunity / exercise to produce better than factory ammo - even for a hunting rifle !
To do so one needs proper measuring tools - as well as / apart from - expensive annealers and all the other "stuff"
This is what - neck turning looks like
Just part of normal case prep and only needs to be done once
Neck turned brass can still be used in a LEE collet neck sizing die
One could also purchase top quality brass and carefully measure a number of cases and sort according to a specific set of dimensions
Careful experimentation is the route to success ... but you still need the correct tools
Quote from: Newton on Jan 03, 2025, 08:27 PMThere is SAAMI - and - then there is reality
NO two chambers are going to be exactly the same - or - be in the same range of tolerances
Take a fired case and measure it - compare to SAAMI
Even better do a chamber cast
IF you like or strive for accuracy
A case with unequal neck thickness may well chamber .. but how will it shoot ?
I cannot see any reason for reloading if one is not going to use the opportunity / exercise to produce better than factory ammo - even for a hunting rifle !
To do so one needs proper measuring tools - as well as / apart from - expensive annealers and all the other "stuff"
This is what - neck turning looks like
Just part of normal case prep and only needs to be done once
Neck turned brass can still be used in a LEE collet neck sizing die
One could also purchase top quality brass and carefully measure a number of cases and sort according to a specific set of dimensions
Careful experimentation is the route to success ... but you still need the correct tools
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For which of your weapons do you do all this stuff and what is the results from before and after? Please list your calibres and the changes you noted.
Quote from: Newton on Jan 03, 2025, 08:27 PMEven better do a chamber cast
IF you like or strive for accuracy
A chamber cast has nothing to do with achieving accuracy. There is not a single measurement on a chamber cast that is going to help you produce accurate ammo.
Quote from: Newton on Jan 03, 2025, 08:27 PMA case with unequal neck thickness may well chamber .. but how will it shoot ?
If you ever reloaded, or ever shot a good group with your own ammo, you could answer that.
Quote from: Newton on Jan 03, 2025, 08:27 PMI cannot see any reason for reloading if one is not going to use the opportunity / exercise to produce better than factory ammo - even for a hunting rifle !
That is the theory of it. If you actually tried it, you would quickly understand that it is impossible to produce better than factory ammo. No hobby equipment can produce factory ammo consistency. Yes, you can produce more accurate ammo for your rifle by reloading, but the consistency of factory ammo is not achievable with hobby equipment.
Quote from: Newton on Jan 03, 2025, 08:27 PMThis is what - neck turning looks like
Just part of normal case prep and only needs to be done once
Neck turned brass can still be used in a LEE collet neck sizing die
It is certainly not part of normal case prep. And a Lee Collet die does not work below a certain case neck thickness, which again you wouldn't know because you've never done this.
@Newton - every member of this forum is valued as a fellow shooter, but please, unless you've actually done something, refrain from regurgitating random information. It is clear from your posts that you have no practical experience whatsoever when it comes to reloading rifle cartridges. In fact, you conduct yourself as an external agent from an organisation that makes it their business to prod and monitor responses on sites with active firearm owners.
Quote from: big5ifty on Jan 04, 2025, 08:25 AM@Newton - every member of this forum is valued as a fellow shooter, but please, unless you've actually done something, refrain from regurgitating random information. It is clear from your posts that you have no practical experience whatsoever when it comes to reloading rifle cartridges. In fact, you conduct yourself as an external agent from an organisation that makes it their business to prod and monitor responses on sites with active firearm owners.
I previously reloaded for a number of firearms - which I subsequently sold
Currently I am still waiting for licenses so I practise reloading without using powder or primers
I have gone and purchased all the measuring equipment I speak about
I also follow people that are professional World competition class shooters - some of which I post here
For general information and learning
You seem to believe that YOU are the expert and have the final word on all things reloading and shooting !
and
No-one should disagree with you !
Please let us know how many serious formal ELR / PRC / F-Class competitions YOU have won or been ranked ?
Thank you
I don't know much myself, and I can't shoot very well either, but I know enough to tell the difference between what is real and what is imaginary.
Practice reloading without powder and primers ? So you practice pulling the reloading press handle, continuously resizing sized brass.
Please, consider gracing some other shooting forum with your presence, and retire from this one.
@big5ifty I dont know about you, but my reloaded rifle ammo are miles above factory ammo. I have loaded the volume to prove such.
Pistol ammo not so much. At least my reloaded pistol ammo are more reliable than the factory S&B ammo I purchased before.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 05, 2025, 07:54 AM@big5ifty
I dont know about you, but my reloaded rifle ammo are miles above factory ammo. I have loaded the volume to prove such.
Pistol ammo not so much. At least my reloaded pistol ammo are more reliable than the factory S&B ammo I purchased before.
Truth is I can't afford factory ammo for the rifles I shoot, so I've never bought any to compare. I do get good enough results.
For handguns, the volumes dictated reloads.
The point I try to make with factory ammo is not the performance of the ammo in a given rifle or handgun, it's the consistency of the loaded round.
The variation in brass, for example. Trimming, sizing, neck diameter, annealing, primer seating. There is a consistency there that hobby reloaders can't match. Putting aside the fact that the factory brass is sized to chamber in any rifle. Yes, we can produce a batch of ammo that is as consistent as factory, within that batch. The next batch we produce can be as consistent within itself, and so on, but when you compare the reloaded batches to each other, there is a variation greater than what comes out a factory.
The one thing I haven't figured out is how they can drop the rifle powder so accurately in the machine. In a reloading powder measure, when you drop a rifle charge of coarse grained extruded, there is always a significant percent variance. Maybe factory rifle ammo is made with ball powders that are not publicly available.
Me thinks factory ammo can be beaten easily by a reloader, FOR HIS RIFLE only.
The term reloading means second hand to an degree - recycled, aint no way you going to recycle as consistantly as to spec new.
JANFRED I think Big5ifty acknowledges that we can produce ammunition thats miles above factory for specific rifles for which that batch was tailored.
Factory loads are almost certainly often using propellants not available to the public - thats why the phrase " the reloader can not easily replicate these results" is often read when researching a cartridge.
Newtons posts have been reported on numerous occasions as, researched, copied, in theory, without practice, read and repeated. As admin we appreciate Newtons input and his massive entheusim is obvious, it must be noted that the forum is orientated to self experienced, self confirmed input and that constant researched regurgetated input is frowned upon.
If you have ever pulled a few rounds of factory ammo and weighed the charges, you would soon realise that the factory ammo available to South Africans are not very consistent charge or length wise.
Measuring velocities you would see that the ES/SD numbers are not that great either.
Checking case dimensions you will find that variations are the same as if you bought the virgin brass yourself. More in line with the manufacturer of the case than the brand of ammunition. So, good quality brass gave acceptable readings. The inverse true for not great brass (Winchester et al)
Checking run-out and COAL you will see quite large variations as well.
Even precision Berger ammunition loaded for the US Palma team are not as consistent as some make out to be. Those were loaded using Lapua cases, Berger bullets with CCI BR2. Same goes for Australian ADI Palma ammunition (ADI brass and Berger bullets) and the British GGG Bisley ammo (GGG cases and Sierra bullets). All of these have been measured by me or people I personally know and trust. The GGG cases were the worst of the lot.
Quote from: janfred on Jan 07, 2025, 01:47 PMIf you have ever pulled a few rounds of factory ammo and weighed the charges, ...
Out of interest, what was the average charge weight, and the variances.
Was it ball or extruded.
It'll help me understand how the powder measures work on the commercial machines.
A quick parting shot
Clearly there are sensitive egos here who do not like to be questioned - when asked for validation of THEIR experience and knowledge
As well as those that support the .. do not question
"Please, consider gracing some other shooting forum with your presence, and retire from this one."
Is this "Mr Moderator" how one is welcomed onto this forum ?
After ..
Much advice / many suggestions / many links to well considered Internet sites all of which is apparently not worth much HERE !
Please tell me what terrible deed I have committed ?
I just wonder how one learns to become a "reloader" - with practical experience - without any external reference / learning / reading / tutorship ?
As to .. "So you practice pulling the reloading press handle, continuously resizing sized brass."
NO I use a number of various factory cases and carefully check and measure dimensions and how these are different to my custom developed cases and how this is related to and is affected by my CUSTOM / modified dies. In order to design a custom chamber reamer.
I also use QuickDESIGN / QuickLOAD / GRT to form some idea of how all this will work BEFORE actual reloading
The mechanical seating of primers and filling a case with powder is pretty much straight forward as is seating bullets
Everything revolves around the case - the rifle chamber - and the dies !
You do what works for you , I will continue doing what works or me - without boring anyone with what that is !
Quote from: Newton on Jan 17, 2025, 03:34 PMAfter ..
Much advice / many suggestions / many links to well considered Internet sites all of which is apparently not worth much HERE !
Please tell me what terrible deed I have committed ?
There is no issue with referring to external sources of information.
There is issue with posting such content as your personal input on a particular reloading issue, especially when the content posted in contradictory.
Rather link to external content and specify "this is how Some Name Here solves this problem ..." .
Much more important than learning from other people is learning by doing. You can always eventually learn just by doing, without external input, but you can never learn unless you are doing.
For the record, the corrective action required was stated to the user in a PM.
The user was not flagged for moderation [ every post to be vetted by an Admin before being made public ] and was not restricted from forum access [ banned ].