Neglident discharges - how often do they occur?
Not the "I played around and oops ..." type, but truly accidents which occurred due to an honest mistake, or something similar?
I know that the basics are very simple: keep the booger hook off the bang switch, yet accidents occur.
Hence the question: how, and how often?
Well, I know someone that carried a CZ75 pre-B at 4 o'clock position in a proper kydex holster made for a CZ75. Apparently his dog jumped up and its paw hooked on the hammer spur pulling it back, but not far enough to cock it. It was enough to fire the one-up cartridge and shoot through his ass cheek.
I was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
I knew a guy who carried a 38 snub in one of those flimsy suede IWB clip on holsters. He drove a beach buggy and one day on sliding down into the bucket seat the trigger got dragged back by the vinyl seat cover and he got shot through his butt cheek.
Also know someone who shot himself while showing off his new pistol at a braai. He put a round through his weak hand, apparently while stuffing it back in its holster.
Quote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMI was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.
Quote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMWell, I know someone that carried a CZ75 pre-B at 4 o'clock position in a proper kydex holster made for a CZ75. Apparently his dog jumped up and its paw hooked on the hammer spur pulling it back, but not far enough to cock it. It was enough to fire the one-up cartridge and shoot through his ass cheek.
I was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
I know of a friend who carried his CZ75 in a groin position and shot himself through his John Thomas. This happened whilst walking.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 08, 2025, 09:10 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMI was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.
Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?
And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.
Quote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 08:00 PMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 08, 2025, 09:10 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMI was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.
Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?
And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.
I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.
I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.
That is probably true of most DA/SA pistols not fitted with a decocker.
Quote from: janfred on Mar 09, 2025, 09:19 AMThat is probably true of most DA/SA pistols not fitted with a decocker.
Indeed and as such I wouldn't be comfortable doing it with any of them.
An old Star 9mmP. One up, hammer down. Going to bed one morning after night shift, dropped pants with pistol in holster on belt, hole in the wall behind me.
Quote from: big5ifty on Mar 09, 2025, 09:41 AMAn old Star 9mmP. One up, hammer down. Going to bed one morning after night shift, dropped pants with pistol in holster on belt, hole in the wall behind me.
If you were a cat you'd have been down to 8 lives there!
I bumped my loaded and decocked P07 off the 2.5m high top shelf of a built in cupboard and when it hit the tiled floor and didn't discharge I fell deeply in love with firing pin blocks.
Not only pistols have AD's
https://youtu.be/hzqJ78sGIPk
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Mar 09, 2025, 01:30 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share
This SIG thing is doing my head in. Millions of dollars awarded to people who have shot themselves without a hint of evidence that 320's are possessed of a magical ability to fire themselves. Not talking of the drop safety issue early on which was the subject of a general recall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuB1QPkg8QA
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Mar 09, 2025, 02:53 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuB1QPkg8QA
High speed without the low drag.
I've done numerous new shooter intro type sessions over the last 30 years and have been criticised for being too hard core on the safety and procedure element of the experience. This video is a perfect worked example of what a fustercluck in the making looks like and why if anyone who comes to shoot with me wants to whine about procedure they can make alternative arrangements.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/1gu1zgw/polish_shooting_judge_accidentally_shoots_a/?rdt=59527
Not sure about accidental. Definitely negligent.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 09, 2025, 08:48 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 08:00 PMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 08, 2025, 09:10 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMI was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.
Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?
And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.
I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.
I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.
But if you have a hammer gun, for example like myself the CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW then you have to load your magazine, chamber the round and then grab the hammer and pull the trigger to let the hammer down, as your first shot must be DA in IPSC and SADPA (IDPA), in Steel Challenge as well if I do remember correctly.
I've always personally racked my slide, then using my left index finger and thumb to grip the hammer before pulling the trigger to let the hammer down, I'm right handed, what I'm trying to say is I've seen other shooters do it with their thumb only on their strong hand, like a hollywood cowboy type method.
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Mar 09, 2025, 01:30 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share
If you look closely you can actually see his finger isn't near the trigger.
https://youtu.be/ADGyglYqeoM?si=i5GSZTEfD6d2Y5GO
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Mar 09, 2025, 01:30 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share
You can look at this video, it has some additional information, for example that's not the retention hood it's a tourniquet.
https://youtu.be/iUe8Fns2v-w?si=vyZ2jL8ETmnSQbqi
I think there might be two possible theories that kinda makes sense for the uncommanded discharges, but it is difficult to determine if some other factors weren't at play, and if the couple of shooters who've shared their stories are just full of shit or like I've said maybe there was something else that was missed.
Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 04:04 AMQuote from: Tripodmvr on Mar 09, 2025, 01:30 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share
If you look closely you can actually see his finger isn't near the trigger.
https://youtu.be/ADGyglYqeoM?si=i5GSZTEfD6d2Y5GO
Well, this looks like a sport shooter of some experience with a race gun. I can think of a number of mods that can be done to a sport pistol to lighten the trigger pull that, if done incorrectly, can quite easily cause unwanted discharges. I would give an extremely high probability that this was caused by an aftermarket modification to lighten the trigger weight done incorrectly. So, even though his finger wasn't on trigger I would still class this as negligent.
Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 03:45 AMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 09, 2025, 08:48 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 08:00 PMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 08, 2025, 09:10 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMI was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.
Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?
And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.
I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.
I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.
But if you have a hammer gun, for example like myself the CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW then you have to load your magazine, chamber the round and then grab the hammer and pull the trigger to let the hammer down, as your first shot must be DA in IPSC and SADPA (IDPA), in Steel Challenge as well if I do remember correctly.
I've always personally racked my slide, then using my left index finger and thumb to grip the hammer before pulling the trigger to let the hammer down, I'm right handed, what I'm trying to say is I've seen other shooters do it with their thumb only on their strong hand, like a hollywood cowboy type method.
I shoot both SADPA and steel challenge from cocked and locked. Puts you in a different division. Can't remember what it is off the top of my head. Lowering the hammer on the line and shooting a stage is one thing but carrying a gun without a firing pin block is another entirely.
If the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.
Quote from: janfred on Mar 11, 2025, 05:46 AMQuote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 04:04 AMQuote from: Tripodmvr on Mar 09, 2025, 01:30 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share
If you look closely you can actually see his finger isn't near the trigger.
https://youtu.be/ADGyglYqeoM?si=i5GSZTEfD6d2Y5GO
Well, this looks like a sport shooter of some experience with a race gun. I can think of a number of mods that can be done to a sport pistol to lighten the trigger pull that, if done incorrectly, can quite easily cause unwanted discharges. I would give an extremely high probability that this was caused by an aftermarket modification to lighten the trigger weight done incorrectly. So, even though his finger wasn't on trigger I would still class this as negligent.
The incident is explained in the video description.
"A shooter at a local match had an accidental discharge and we were lucky enough to catch it on film. This was NOT a negligent discharge as his finger was nowhere near the trigger when the gun fired.
Consider all of the things he did CORRECTLY during the incident:
1.Gun is pointed down range and in a safe direction.
2. After the discharge he did not panic, but rather surveyed the situation.
3. After surveying the situation he awaited directions from the range officer instead of wildly handling the firearm.
Also, consider all of the things that he did INCORRECTLY prior to the incident:
1. He installed an aftermarket hammer and sear that were labeled "gunsmith installation only".
2. He disabled the firing pin block safety on his firearm for a shorter reset.
In his defense, this handgun had been tested and run weekly at ranges for roughly 1,000 rounds before the sear engagement failed and caused the accidental discharge."
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 11, 2025, 06:52 AMQuote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 03:45 AMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 09, 2025, 08:48 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 08:00 PMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 08, 2025, 09:10 AMQuote from: janfred on Mar 08, 2025, 02:43 AMI was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.
A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.
Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?
And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.
I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.
I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.
But if you have a hammer gun, for example like myself the CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW then you have to load your magazine, chamber the round and then grab the hammer and pull the trigger to let the hammer down, as your first shot must be DA in IPSC and SADPA (IDPA), in Steel Challenge as well if I do remember correctly.
I've always personally racked my slide, then using my left index finger and thumb to grip the hammer before pulling the trigger to let the hammer down, I'm right handed, what I'm trying to say is I've seen other shooters do it with their thumb only on their strong hand, like a hollywood cowboy type method.
I shoot both SADPA and steel challenge from cocked and locked. Puts you in a different division. Can't remember what it is off the top of my head. Lowering the hammer on the line and shooting a stage is one thing but carrying a gun without a firing pin block is another entirely.
I'm not to familiar with SADPA (IDPA) rules or divisions, but I understand what you are saying, in IPSC there's no alternative you have to drop the hammer.
That being said, I wouldn't recommend carry a Shadow type firearm as a defense gun.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 11, 2025, 06:57 AMIf the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.
I don't believe it would be easily proved, as there's probably a few things that need to go "wrong" in this scenario, and also I think independent testing would cost a shit load of money.
Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 07:11 AMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 11, 2025, 06:57 AMIf the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.
I don't believe it would be easily proved, as there's probably a few things that need to go "wrong" in this scenario, and also I think independent testing would cost a shit load of money.
Nope. It's a very simple mechanical device with small number of parts. If it's possessed of the ability to fire itself a couple of engineers with experience in the field couldn't avoid finding that on the first day. Given the losses that are likely being inflicted on SIG by this witch hunt and the scale of the awards coming through it would be cheap at the price. In the example you cited above you say the shooter replaced his trigger with an aftermarket unit and removed the firing pin block. The notion of linking a gun so modified to 'the SIG magical discharge phenomenon' is a perfect example of what's wrong with the whole show. It's inherently illogical and feels based with great big pots of money waiting for those who can play the bizarre US damages lotto well.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 11, 2025, 07:24 AMQuote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 07:11 AMQuote from: oafpatroll on Mar 11, 2025, 06:57 AMIf the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.
I don't believe it would be easily proved, as there's probably a few things that need to go "wrong" in this scenario, and also I think independent testing would cost a shit load of money.
Nope. It's a very simple mechanical device with small number of parts. If it's possessed of the ability to fire itself a couple of engineers with experience in the field couldn't avoid finding that on the first day. Given the losses that are likely being inflicted on SIG by this witch hunt and the scale of the awards coming through it would be cheap at the price. In the example you cited above you say the shooter replaced his trigger with an aftermarket unit and removed the firing pin block. The notion of linking a gun so modified to 'the SIG magical discharge phenomenon' is a perfect example of what's wrong with the whole show. It's inherently illogical and feels based with great big pots of money waiting for those who can play the bizarre US damages lotto well.
So you are adamant that 100% of all the cases are definitely some type of user error "negligent discharge" or some type of object getting snagged in the holster or trigger causing the trigger to be depressed?
Besides the drop safety and the uncommanded discharges, there's a lot of P320's that has suffered out of battery detonations as well.
Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 09:40 AMSo you are adamant that 100% of all the cases are definitely some type of user error "negligent discharge" or some type of object getting snagged in the holster or trigger causing the trigger to be depressed?
Besides the drop safety and the uncommanded discharges, there's a lot of P320's that has suffered out of battery detonations as well.
I'm not 100% certain about anything other than noise on the internet being something best ignored. What I'm saying, and I don't think this is remotely controversial is that there has been no proof presented of SIGs being able to fire themselves without the trigger being manipulated to the sear release point.
As mentioned before, the prosecutions in two of the cases where awards were made admitted that the guns in question couldn't fire without said manipulation. The most likely reason for people to shoot themselves with a bone stock service pistol is them pulling the trigger while pointing it at themselves. Next most likely is obstructions in the holster or bad holster design/manufacture that allows the trigger to be dragged while holstered. Way down the list of likely reasons is manufacturing defect and even further down than that is an inherent design flaw. Unlikely but not impossible and also very far from impossible to identify and replicate with the sample guns in hand. The fact that a plausible explanation hasn't been put forward, even in the cases where big money has been awarded, says more to me about the likely answer than anything else.
The drop safety thing was resolved with a general recall and redesign early in its sales life. None of the current round of magical discharge cases even hint at that being a factor.
Can you point me to the OOB detonation reports? I'd be interested to read them over. Given the vast sums of money spent by the US military in trials I'd be more than a bit surprised to find that there was something inherent in the 320's design that made it any more susceptible to OOB than any other gun of it's type. How to avoind them has been well understood for well over 100 years.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 11, 2025, 10:55 AMQuote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 11, 2025, 09:40 AMSo you are adamant that 100% of all the cases are definitely some type of user error "negligent discharge" or some type of object getting snagged in the holster or trigger causing the trigger to be depressed?
Besides the drop safety and the uncommanded discharges, there's a lot of P320's that has suffered out of battery detonations as well.
I'm not 100% certain about anything other than noise on the internet being something best ignored. What I'm saying, and I don't think this is remotely controversial is that there has been no proof presented of SIGs being able to fire themselves without the trigger being manipulated to the sear release point.
As mentioned before, the prosecutions in two of the cases where awards were made admitted that the guns in question couldn't fire without said manipulation. The most likely reason for people to shoot themselves with a bone stock service pistol is them pulling the trigger while pointing it at themselves. Next most likely is obstructions in the holster or bad holster design/manufacture that allows the trigger to be dragged while holstered. Way down the list of likely reasons is manufacturing defect and even further down than that is an inherent design flaw. Unlikely but not impossible and also very far from impossible to identify and replicate with the sample guns in hand. The fact that a plausible explanation hasn't been put forward, even in the cases where big money has been awarded, says more to me about the likely answer than anything else.
The drop safety thing was resolved with a general recall and redesign early in its sales life. None of the current round of magical discharge cases even hint at that being a factor.
Can you point me to the OOB detonation reports? I'd be interested to read them over. Given the vast sums of money spent by the US military in trials I'd be more than a bit surprised to find that there was something inherent in the 320's design that made it any more susceptible to OOB than any other gun of it's type. How to avoind them has been well understood for well over 100 years.
The more I look into this, the more I'm struggling to say this isn't possible, rabbit hole indeed.
I think a contributing factor to this could also be that SIG uses MIM parts and that comes from places like India 🇮🇳 so the QC might not be up to scratch.
Here's another video that has some Military branches reporting uncommanded discharges with a full document download in the video description.
My opinion is they should have just made a trigger tab safety like many other firearms manufacturers.
Anyways, at least I know there's a few people in the world that agrees with me on the SIG P320's and that SIG is a real "shady" business.
https://youtu.be/nh-HzQ5cQ9k?si=SPTPRgsKmeQpDs_a
Are you saying you think the gun can fire itself without the trigger being manipulated?
'Uncommanded discharges' sounds like classic weasel wordery to me. Along the lines of just transition, social justice or inclusive development.
MIM is used by just about everyone. You'll struggle to find a volume manufacturer that doesn't include it.
The fact that something is theoretically possible doesn't equate to it being likely or probable and until someone proves this 'phenomenon' empirically I'll stick to calling it most likely driver error chasing huge payouts in the land of loony civil litigation.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Mar 12, 2025, 09:35 AMAre you saying you think the gun can fire itself without the trigger being manipulated?
'Uncommanded discharges' sounds like classic weasel wordery to me. Along the lines of just transition, social justice or inclusive development.
MIM is used by just about everyone. You'll struggle to find a volume manufacturer that doesn't include it.
The fact that something is theoretically possible doesn't equate to it being likely or probable and until someone proves this 'phenomenon' empirically I'll stick to calling it most likely driver error chasing huge payouts in the land of loony civil litigation.
Yes that's what I'm saying, whatever the correct terminology is called, whether it be uncommanded discharges or something else, the definition remains the same, the firearm fired a round without the trigger being depressed.
You can go die on that hill, I refuse to believe that 100% of all these reported incidents are for payouts, user error, bad holster design etc.
Quote from: NoStepOnSnek88 on Mar 12, 2025, 10:07 AMYou can go die on that hill, I refuse to believe that 100% of all these reported incidents are for payouts, user error, bad holster design etc.
Nothing's impossible and as I've said before I'm not 100% sure of anything wrt this story, except perhaps that very large sums of money influence behaviour. It's not about belief one way or another but rather likelihood and a pistol is not a device complicated enough to hide magic so sooner or later it will be proven or not. If you 'believe' something then no amount of evidence or the lack thereof is convincing which is why I prefer to avoid it and keep an open mind. I look forward to seeing something empirical coming out of the investigations that must be happening in the background given the scale of the awards, the potential losses to SIG and potential knock-on effects to the US military and dozens of police forces.