Hi Folks, which calibre/s would you recommend for culling on an eco estate? (Apologies if I have asked this before).
At times, subsonic shots out to 25m would be a requirement, and no shots over 100m. Shooting could also occur at night with appropriate lights etc.
Target species: antilope up to kudu and BlueWB.
A lot depends on what you have available, and what you can adapt for sub-sonic shooting. The easiest is .22LR as most people have one, and you can buy ammo over the shelf. At 25m max you should be ok, as long as you can place that bullet with pin point accuracy.
Remember sub sonic is very low energy, so a 200gr 308 sub sonic has less energy than a 40gr 22 cal bullet going at 2800ft/sec. A bigger caliber is less of a win than speed. Essentially the formula for energy is the mass x speed squared, so the bullet speed is has an exponential relationship with energy, or to put it simply. Speed kills.
This would mean a .45 caliber bullet at 900fps would be ideal, simply because it covers a larger area.
For longer shots, a properly silenced rifle would obviously do much better.
I can remember reading many years ago in Magnum Magazine about a similar requirement and the shooter used a 9x57 Mauser (It is a real calibre) and suppressor loaded with handgun bullets. They were apparently much more effective than .22LR
A bolt action 44 Magnum with suppressor would also work well. (Yes they do exist and/or can be built using a Lee-Enfield action because 303 has almost same rim as 44 Magnum)
.300 Blackout?
Most subsonic options will have a trajectory close to a .22LR
As stated by Againsthegrain, much depends on what you have available.
You want to use the biggest calibre in least necked down case. Straight walls or minimum necked down cases with the biggest hole maker you can find. Simple way of putting it.
I have not yet tried the .303 in subsonic mode, but I know it will work, 308, .458 and .357 lever are all easy sub sonic calibres.
I believe that full wad cutter bullets (if existing) would be the ideal bullet, big flat tissue crushing non deforming bullet. Remember, BC means nothing when shooting at hunting sub sonic ranges.
Some day I will make some .303 220 gr sub sonic ammo using bullets loaded backwards.
I shot a young wounded kudu a short while ago with my 9mm pistol, and saw an impala yew with a sore eye a two days ago.
It brought me to thinking again - how would one proceed if one had to cull these animals in a reserve, or where loud gun shots are not ideal?
I agree with the above, that if you can find a rifle in a pistol caliber .44 or .45 than that is your best bet to reload sub-sonic, as the loading is easier/less dangerous than a marginally filled hunting rifle case. The wider the diameter of the bullet the better. But again, as I mentioned, a 200gr bullet has 4 times more energy than a 50gr bullet at the same speed. But a 50gr bullet travelling at double the speed will have 4 times more energy, and at 4 times the speed will have 16 times the energy. Basic laws of physics.
Hunting rifle cases are scary when they are partially filled, because the powder column burns very inconsistently, even with fillers. They can also be extremely dangerous, as what can happen is that the primer ignition stirs up the powder, it can burn like a gas, with all granules igniting simultaneously, or ignites side ways along the full length of the case as the primer flash shoots out above the powder lying flat. This sudden release of gas, as opposed to the column burning through from the primer to the bullet has been know to cause "sub-sonic" hand loads to blow up rifle actions with a fraction of the power of a normal load.
If you have a heavy barreled well silenced small caliber eg 204 or 223 with V-max bullets, then it deadly accurate and super effective, and those little bullets disintegrate on impact, making them safe in built up areas to avoid pass throughs and ricochets. The only thing you hear is the sonic crack which is very little if you shoot at very close distances compared to a 200m shot. Explained as follows:
What Changes Between 10 m and 200 m?
At 10 m, you're mostly hearing:
The muzzle blast, reduced by the suppressor.
A short portion of the bullet's shockwave, because it's only been flying 10 m.
At 200 m, if you're anywhere near the bullet's path:
You're exposed to a longer segment of the bullet's Mach cone — more shockwave hits your ears.
It creates a longer-duration and possibly louder crack, not because the wave got stronger, but because you're intersecting more of it.
A silenced Ruger M77/44 which is a thing I have always lusted after would seem to be just the ticket. It was used as the basis for a reimagined De Lisle carbine called the Silent Destroyer.
A real world application of the above is as follows: I often visit a farm in an area with small holdings and houses near by. Many of the surrounding residents are city slicker bunny hugger greenies, that are very anti gun. The farmer is happy for me to use my suppressed with Recoil Reaper 204 Ruger (32gr V-max at 4000ft/sec), so long as I am shooting the pigs at near point blank range. They drop like stones with this little bullet, and I've never had a pass through. He prefers this to a .22 sub sonic, as the kills are very clean and quick (brain gets turned to mush). We've never had a chirp from the neighbours. When I offered to pop a pesky vervet on the other side of an open field, he nearly had a heart attack, because of the distance the sonic boom travels.
The whole idea behind OBT is to ignite the powder as fast as possible. And the primer flash through powder ignites far more powder immediately (burns inside out with very little free volume) than a flash over the top of a half filled case (burnig top down with large free volume).
Also, that is why subsonic loads in rifle cartriges are done with fast pistol powder. Every granule is ignited even before the bullet has fully left the case.
Ideal calibre for (subsonic) culling?
Surely in this case, where velocity is not a contributor to success, the answer can only be two factors.
Size of hole and weight of bullet, the one for amount of damage area, the other for amount of damage distance POI to stopping.
Yea Jameson, my exact theory as well, wide and heavy does the trick when subsonic. A 165 gr sub sonic .308 usually does not break a brick, for what the info is worth :o
Some of the subsonic options possibly available:
1. 300Blk. Factory rifles in bolt action and semi auto are readily available. So is brass, bullets and factory subsonic ammo. Punches a rather small hole, so shot placement is crucial.
2. 38 / 357 lever action rifle loaded with subsonic ammo. Slow rifling twists generally limit bullet weight to around 158 gn. It can be a little tricky to put a supressor on a lever gun, depending on configuration.
3. 9mm carbine loaded with 147gn ammo. All readily available, but only in semi-auto.
4. 44 Mag rifle, lever or bolt, loaded with heavy subsonic bullet. Beware, some have a slow 1:38" twist rate that is good for 250gn bullets only. A 320gn flat-nosed cast lead bullet at 1000 fps can be loaded if your twist rat permits. This one punches a big hole and penetrates deep, so terminal effect is better than the small bores.
5. 45 Auto carbine. Somewhat scarce and penetrations is generally poor.
6. 458SOCOM / 458-1.5" / 458-2" and similar rifles. 500gn bullets at 1000 fps have some authority.
7. Last and the smallest, but not the least, the good old 22LR with subsonic ammo from one of the many brands is always a good thing to have. Shot placement is critical on medium animals. I see a few makers offer 45gn solid bullet ammo. This may help quite a bit with penetration.
There may be other options, but these usually involve serious dedication and tinkering.
223, who offers solid .22 ammo, this is of some interest. Will also Google this question. Solid brass, copper ?
Quote from: 223 on Jul 31, 2025, 08:25 PMhe good old 22LR with subsonic ammo from one of the many brands is always a good thing to have. Shot placement is critical on medium animals. I see a few makers offer 45gn solid bullet ammo. This may help quite a bit with penetration.
Please help me with at least one maker's name for 45gr solids.
Please help me with at least one maker's name for 45gr solids.
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Question, solid non expanding or monolithic ?
I see the non expanding 22 bullets are called solids ? I am wanting a mono copper bullet in .22
Quote from: BBCT on Jul 31, 2025, 09:27 PMQuote from: 223 on Jul 31, 2025, 08:25 PMhe good old 22LR with subsonic ammo from one of the many brands is always a good thing to have. Shot placement is critical on medium animals. I see a few makers offer 45gn solid bullet ammo. This may help quite a bit with penetration.
Please help me with at least one maker's name for 45gr solids.
Kriek Bullets has a 48gr mono.
Kriek Bullets has a 48gr mono.
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Sorry, my BAAAD, really bad. Called a cartridge a bullet. I am wanting .22 LR ammunition in mono solid copper. A monolithic .22 LR factory ammunition.
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 03, 2025, 03:46 PMKriek Bullets has a 48gr mono.
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Winchester has a 45gn Solid LEAD bullet load available. It has been marked with different names, but the load is the same. At subsonic velocities the lead bullet does not really deform, so penetrations is decent.
https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rimfire/Super-Suppressed/SUP22LR
I have seen brass bullets (Impala?) for the 22LR. The idea is to pull the lead bullet from a factory load, re-measure or change powder, and seat the brass bullet. Obviously it will be much lighter, so speed will be up, making it supersonic.
If the Aguila 22LR SSS 60gn load was available locally, I might just buy a pallet of the stuff and order a 1:12" twist barrel to shoot it with.
https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/22-sniper-subsonic-long-rifle-subsonic-lead-solid-point
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 03, 2025, 03:46 PMKriek Bullets has a 48gr mono.
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Sorry, my BAAAD, really bad. Called a cartridge a bullet. I am wanting .22 LR ammunition in mono solid copper. A monolithic .22 LR factory ammunition.
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Just to clarify my earlier post, I'm also looking for .22LR ammo with copper monolithic bullet. I have also heard rumours of their existence but never been able to find proper information.
Maybe as per 223's suggestion, one would have to pull the lead bullets and replace them with copper bullets. I guess one would have to crimp them in some way but otherwise it would be a simple process.
I actually have obtained some Impala solids and had a die made just for that purpose. Pulled and reloaded. The accuracy was....... downrange, sometimes even in direction of the target.
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 04, 2025, 08:26 AMI actually have obtained some Impala solids and had a die made just for that purpose. Pulled and reloaded. The accuracy was....... downrange, sometimes even in direction of the target.
Now that is some hard core rabbit rabbit holing.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/products/curx-32gr-22lr-bundle-200ct
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/collections/curx-22lr
22LR bullets are heeled (rebated). The reduced diameter fits into the case and the tip of the bullet has the same diameter as the case. You would have to use copper bullets that are made this way, as those from Cutting Edge.
Quote from: Ds J on Aug 04, 2025, 12:16 PMhttps://cuttingedgebullets.com/products/curx-32gr-22lr-bundle-200ct
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/collections/curx-22lr
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Wish it was available in RSA
They should be easy to cut on a CNC lathe. Getting primed cases is another ballpark, except if you pull bullets from existing cartridges. Getting the charge right will be the next challenge.
This sounds a bit like trying to get the (apparent) benefits of a .17 out of a .22. I wonder how much better a turned monolithic would be at .22 velocities than a hard cast lead bullet.
Quote from: oafpatroll on Aug 05, 2025, 08:42 AMThis sounds a bit like trying to get the (apparent) benefits of a .17 out of a .22. I wonder how much better a turned monolithic would be at .22 velocities than a hard cast lead bullet.
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This is what has been interesting me. I would love to test a large metplat solid non deforming bullet .22 LR bullet. The intent was to use it as a deep reaching brain shot - absolutely silent killer. To be able to remove a specific animal without any disturbance to troop or urban residents. Also to be able to dispatch suffering animals in same manner.
It is always a issue with the .22 LR to get that penetration needed, even if shot placement is .22 LR perfect.
Impala has a 40gr CFN. I am sure they could make a special order with rebated rim.
Quote from: Ds J on Aug 05, 2025, 11:07 PMImpala has a 40gr CFN. I am sure they could make a special order with rebated rim.
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Already tried it, as per further up post. Accuracy was terrible and velocity wildly up down. The crimp on bullet was the biggest issue and I could not solve it.
I believe the reason we do not see this type of ammunition readily available is because the little calibre needs to be soft to engrave enough to impart twists effect on the bullet. Secondly, because of this the rifles that likes the particular bullet will be very specific with so so many rifles just being a "no".
Hence its not worth it to manufacture.
I used MP 200 propellant, and it was far from ideal, would have to find some extra fine black powder.
What about a hard cast lead bullet?
In addition, I guess the thin case neck of a .22 case does not improve the situation.
Heeled bullets phased out by the late 1880's if memory serves correct - except for the .22LR.
We seem to have drifted off from the starting point of this thread, but while we're at it....
If I was hell bent on using a .22 calibre bullet for subsonic culling, my starting point would be a .22 hornet with monolithics. Because of slow twist 1:16 typical of .22H it would probably be limited to 40 grains max weight. I can recall locally .22H monolithics being available certainly down to 35 grains but can't recall who was making them. That weight range would be the same as a .22LR but unlike .22LR, 22H is easy to reload. A light bullet like that might not have great penetration but the advantage is that those stubby little bullets also won't travel too far if one were to miss, or if it passes through the animal.
GS Custom made a 35gr bullet for the 22H.
For killing larger animals with subsonic bullets I would think that .308 or larger would give enough penetration to ensure a lethal shot. I remember an article in Magnum that mentioned a .32 calibre rifle (specially made) to cull game at night. Only chest shots were used and death was not instantaneous.
Quote from: Tripodmvr on Aug 07, 2025, 05:06 PMGS Custom made a 35gr bullet for the 22H.
For killing larger animals with subsonic bullets I would think that .308 or larger would give enough penetration to ensure a lethal shot. I remember an article in Magnum that mentioned a .32 calibre rifle (specially made) to cull game at night. Only chest shots were used and death was not instantaneous.
I agree that using .308 or larger is first prize but typically if one is doing "discreet" culling, one would want the animal to drop quickly so I would suggest brain shots, not chest. They don't run away after a brain shot, whereas after a chest/lung shot shot they can go far enough that you can struggle to find the carcass.
Having said that, I have observed on more than one occasion, an animal with part of its brain lying on the ground next to it after a night time close range brain shot with a 243/6.5x55/308/30-06 is lying kicking and performing because it doesn't understand that it is dead.
As per my post on GS years ago, when doing subsonic you must break bones, I do not like head shots in general. Double shoulder bone and double lung is optimum, but usually one big bone and into lungs does the trick within a moment.
My rule of thumb when I was shooting subsonic was that you had to break a major bone or it WILL run forever. Skull, spine, shoulder, you must break a major bone.
Quote from: Treeman on Aug 08, 2025, 08:40 AMAs per my post on GS years ago, when doing subsonic you must break bones, I do not like head shots in general. Double shoulder bone and double lung is optimum, but usually one big bone and into lungs does the trick within a moment.
My rule of thumb when I was shooting subsonic was that you had to break a major bone or it WILL run forever. Skull, spine, shoulder, you must break a major bone.
That is true, even with a big caliber.