Sizing ball grabbing neck of case.

[Newton]

I haven't looked at the Sudami site for a long while and was amazed a their range, it's huge. Fantastic to see an SA manufacturing outfit growing like this.

There is also this one - also SA made



APW Expander Mandrel Set

[big5ifty]

Do whatever you want - the above is the correct way to do this

... if you use a bushing die for neck sizing. Which, for best results, also requires neck turning.

Using a bushing die with turned necks is usually reserved for a custom chamber, where the tolerance is so small that an un-turned neck is not going to chamber. 

If you size with the expander ball removed, then a mandrel, it greatly simplifies everything, you don't care what the neck thickness is, and you don't care if the neck is thicker on one side or the other, ie : no neck turning required, for hunting rifles with a factory chamber. There is no need to calculate anything, or measure anything.

Using a bushing die and using a mandrel are not done together in practice, it's either or.

The bushing die sets the neck diameter, based on the neck thickness, which can only be done properly with a turned neck, so there is no point in using a mandrel as well.

[Newton]

There is SAAMI - and - then there is reality
NO two chambers are going to be exactly the same - or - be in the same range of tolerances
Take a fired case and measure it - compare to SAAMI
Even better do a chamber cast
IF you like or strive for accuracy
A case with unequal neck thickness may well chamber .. but how will it shoot ?

I cannot see any reason for reloading if one is not going to use the opportunity / exercise to produce better than factory ammo - even for a hunting rifle !
To do so one needs proper measuring tools - as well as  / apart from - expensive annealers and all the other "stuff"

This is what - neck turning looks like

Just part of normal case prep and only needs to be done once
Neck turned brass can still be used in a LEE collet neck sizing die

One could also purchase top quality brass and carefully measure a number of cases and sort according to a specific set of dimensions

Careful experimentation is the route to success ... but you still need the correct tools



 

[Treeman]

There is SAAMI - and - then there is reality
NO two chambers are going to be exactly the same - or - be in the same range of tolerances
Take a fired case and measure it - compare to SAAMI
Even better do a chamber cast
IF you like or strive for accuracy
A case with unequal neck thickness may well chamber .. but how will it shoot ?
I cannot see any reason for reloading if one is not going to use the opportunity / exercise to produce better than factory ammo - even for a hunting rifle !
To do so one needs proper measuring tools - as well as  / apart from - expensive annealers and all the other "stuff"
This is what - neck turning looks like

Just part of normal case prep and only needs to be done once
Neck turned brass can still be used in a LEE collet neck sizing die
One could also purchase top quality brass and carefully measure a number of cases and sort according to a specific set of dimensions
Careful experimentation is the route to success ... but you still need the correct tools

***********************
For which of your weapons do you do all this stuff and what is the results from before and after? Please list your calibres and the changes you noted.

[big5ifty]

Even better do a chamber cast
IF you like or strive for accuracy

A chamber cast has nothing to do with achieving accuracy. There is not a single measurement on a chamber cast that is going to help you produce accurate ammo.

A case with unequal neck thickness may well chamber .. but how will it shoot ?

If you ever reloaded, or ever shot a good group with your own ammo, you could answer that.

I cannot see any reason for reloading if one is not going to use the opportunity / exercise to produce better than factory ammo - even for a hunting rifle !

That is the theory of it. If you actually tried it, you would quickly understand that it is impossible to produce better than factory ammo. No hobby equipment can produce factory ammo consistency. Yes, you can produce more accurate ammo for your rifle by reloading, but the consistency of factory ammo is not achievable with hobby equipment.

This is what - neck turning looks like

Just part of normal case prep and only needs to be done once
Neck turned brass can still be used in a LEE collet neck sizing die

It is certainly not part of normal case prep. And a Lee Collet die does not work below a certain case neck thickness, which again you wouldn't know because you've never done this.

@Newton - every member of this forum is valued as a fellow shooter, but please, unless you've actually done something, refrain from regurgitating random information. It is clear from your posts that you have no practical experience whatsoever when it comes to reloading rifle cartridges. In fact, you conduct yourself as an external agent from an organisation that makes it their business to prod and monitor responses on sites with active firearm owners.

[Newton]

@Newton - every member of this forum is valued as a fellow shooter, but please, unless you've actually done something, refrain from regurgitating random information. It is clear from your posts that you have no practical experience whatsoever when it comes to reloading rifle cartridges. In fact, you conduct yourself as an external agent from an organisation that makes it their business to prod and monitor responses on sites with active firearm owners.

I previously reloaded for a number of firearms - which I subsequently sold
Currently I am still waiting for licenses so I practise reloading without using powder or primers
I have gone and purchased all the measuring equipment I speak about
I also follow people that are professional World competition class shooters - some of which I post here
For general information and learning

You seem to believe that YOU are the expert and have the final word on all things reloading and shooting !
and
No-one should disagree with you !
Please let us know how many serious formal ELR / PRC / F-Class competitions YOU have won or been ranked ?

Thank you

[big5ifty]

I don't know much myself, and I can't shoot very well either, but I know enough to tell the difference between what is real and what is imaginary.

Practice reloading without powder and primers ? So you practice pulling the reloading press handle, continuously resizing sized brass.

Please, consider gracing some other shooting forum with your presence, and retire from this one.

[janfred]

@big5ifty
I dont know about you, but my reloaded rifle ammo are miles above factory ammo. I have loaded the volume to prove such.

Pistol ammo not so much. At least my reloaded pistol ammo are more reliable than the factory S&B ammo I purchased before.

[big5ifty]

@big5ifty
I dont know about you, but my reloaded rifle ammo are miles above factory ammo. I have loaded the volume to prove such.
Pistol ammo not so much. At least my reloaded pistol ammo are more reliable than the factory S&B ammo I purchased before.

Truth is I can't afford factory ammo for the rifles I shoot, so I've never bought any to compare. I do get good enough results.

For handguns, the volumes dictated reloads.

The point I try to make with factory ammo is not the performance of the ammo in a given rifle or handgun, it's the consistency of the loaded round.

The variation in brass, for example. Trimming, sizing, neck diameter, annealing, primer seating. There is a consistency there that hobby reloaders can't match. Putting aside the fact that the factory brass is sized to chamber in any rifle. Yes, we can produce a batch of ammo that is as consistent as factory, within that batch. The next batch we produce can be as consistent within itself, and so on, but when you compare the reloaded batches to each other, there is a variation greater than what comes out a factory.

The one thing I haven't figured out is how they can drop the rifle powder so accurately in the machine. In a reloading powder measure, when you drop a rifle charge of coarse grained extruded, there is always a significant percent variance. Maybe factory rifle ammo is made with ball powders that are not publicly available.

[Treeman]

Me thinks factory ammo can be beaten easily by a reloader, FOR HIS RIFLE only.
The term reloading means second hand to an degree - recycled, aint no way you going to recycle as consistantly as to spec new.

JANFRED I think Big5ifty acknowledges that we can produce ammunition thats miles above factory for specific rifles for which that batch was tailored.
Factory loads are almost certainly often using propellants not available to  the public - thats why the phrase " the reloader can not easily replicate these results" is often read when researching a cartridge.

[troglodyte]

 Newtons posts have been reported on numerous occasions as, researched, copied, in theory, without practice, read and repeated. As admin we appreciate Newtons input and his massive entheusim is obvious, it must be noted that the forum is orientated to self experienced, self confirmed input and that constant researched regurgetated input is frowned upon.

[janfred]

If you have ever pulled a few rounds of factory ammo and weighed the charges, you would soon realise that the factory ammo available to South Africans are not very consistent charge or length wise.

Measuring velocities you would see that the ES/SD numbers are not that great either.

Checking case dimensions you will find that variations are the same as if you bought the virgin brass yourself. More in line with the manufacturer of the case than the brand of ammunition. So, good quality brass gave acceptable readings. The inverse true for not great brass (Winchester et al)

Checking run-out and COAL you will see quite large variations as well.

Even precision Berger ammunition loaded for the US Palma team are not as consistent as some make out to be. Those were loaded using Lapua cases, Berger bullets with CCI BR2. Same goes for Australian ADI Palma ammunition (ADI brass and Berger bullets) and the British GGG Bisley ammo (GGG cases and Sierra bullets). All of these have been measured by me or people I personally know and trust. The GGG cases were the worst of the lot.

[big5ifty]

If you have ever pulled a few rounds of factory ammo and weighed the charges,  ...

Out of interest, what was the average charge weight, and the variances.

Was it ball or extruded.

It'll help me understand how the powder measures work on the commercial machines.