Reloading 7.62x39

[Rumple]

How was accuracy with other reloads?

How is accuracy with bought ammunition?

How does the reloads' speed compare to the bought ammunition?

Don't worry - it is usually just one or two tweaks to get things much better.

1) Only fired a 2 rounds at the target on the first attempt both were low.
2) The hole in the center of the target in the picture is the bought ammo. (fired a few just to confirm it wasn't me shooting kak)
3) The bought ammo runs 2316 fps avg, my ammo does 2107 fps, but mine are polymer coated and the factory ammo is fmj.

What do I try first? Speed up or slow down? When I look at load data for these bullets on the Quartermasters webpage they published the following data (bearing in mind I'm using S265 not S321)

Silver Rapids 7.62x39 123gr

Loading Data Provided for reference purposes only: Load At Own Risk

POWDER 321

23gr 1740fps

23.5gr 1836fps

24gr 1848fps

24.5gr 1871fps

25gr 1893 fps

POWDER 321

Test results obtained from 16" Barrel.

Pro Tip (s) when reloading:

Flare the case so that the polymer is not shaved off when seating the bullet. (I do that)
Do not over-crimp the bullet in the case, it is softer than copper Jacket/lead core. This will distort the shape of the bullet and affect accuracy." (I only apply a very light factory crimp to compensate for the flaring)

Edit-
Going to try 18gr and seat the bullet to the same ogive as the factory round....

[Ds J]

Try to obtain lower speeds,  it might be the reason for the erratic behaviour.

And check on other forums as well - the necessary info should be available.

[Rumple]

Back to the range....

Dropped the powder to 17gr with the silver rapids and had an avg of 1872fps first 2 shot were good last three were terrible...
Shot 5 factory rounds with a perfect group avg of 2357 fps.(one was low but it was me)
Shot 5 Sierra Pro-Hunter .303 Caliber (.311) 125 gr. SPT at 2142 fps (21Gr) group was terrible...
Shot 5 PMP 150 gr SP FMJ (had problems with the crimp on the cannelure) 1888 fps with 19gr, group was terrible.
Shot 5 rounds of silver rapids with 16.5 gr first 2 shots were ok last three were terrible...
Shot 4 rounds with 16gr first 2 were perfect last 2 were terrible...

I've order some Winchester 7.62X39mm, 123 gr PP, bullets and will try them. Mate of mine said he's 223 PC bullets improved with gas checks, so I ordered 30 cal gas checks and will give that a bash on the silver rapids. What does installing gas checks entail?

[Treeman]

The Silver Rapids stuff was absolutely unusable for me as well.
The more I consider your shots, the more I am thinking this is a rifle issue - not an load issue.

Find another rifle and shoot same loads through it - load 8, 4 for you and four for other rifle, I am putting money on the rifle being female.

[Rumple]

The Silver Rapids stuff was absolutely unusable for me as well.
The more I consider your shots, the more I am thinking this is a rifle issue - not an load issue.

Find another rifle and shoot same loads through it - load 8, 4 for you and four for other rifle, I am putting money on the rifle being female.

Nobody in the club has that caliber, only guy I saw yesterday was shooting an AR15 in 6.5 creedmoor  He fired a shot then cleaned the barrel then fired a shot and cleaned the barrel he asked me if I did that with the AK and I said no 

Going to try get the speed up on the Sierra's to about the speed of the factory loads...only problem is I only managed to buy a few second hand and I don't see them for sale anywhere...hopefully the Winchesters will work

[Rumple]

Found this article...not all of it makes sense to me


CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES

Cast bullets can make shooting that surplus rifle easy and economical.
And basic data works for many different guns.

BY C. E. Harris

Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical field ranges with military battle sights than do full power
loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that shoots a foot high at 100 yards with surplus ammo when the
sight is as low as it will go! Do not use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up excess empty space in the case. This
was once common practice, but it raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes to chamber ringing.
If a particular load will not work well without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions of loading. Four
load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges
to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any
post-1898 military rifle from 7mm to 8mm:

1. 125 grain plain based "small game/gallery" 900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

2. 150 grain plain based "100-yard target/small game", 1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

3. 170-180 grain gas checked "200 yard target", 1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grains of Hercules #2400 or equivalent.

4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of RL-7 or equivalent.

None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle cases such as the 30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65
Argentine, 7.7 Jap, 7.62x54R Russian , or 30-06. They can be used as basic load data in most modern military rifles of
7mm or larger, with a standard weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the 7x57, 150-180 grains in
the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in the 8mm. For bores smaller than 7mm, consult published data.

The Small Game or Gallery" Load

The 110-115 grain bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20 Winchester, such as the Lyman #3118, #311008,
#311359, or #311316 are not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a readily available .30 caliber
cast small game bullet of the proper 125-130 grain weight. LBT makes a 130 grain flat-nosed gas-check bullet for the
.32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver.

The "100 Yard Target and Small Game" Load

I use Mattern's plain-based "100 yard target load" to use up my minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire
100 yard practice. I substitute my usual gas-checked bullets, but without the gas-check. I started doing this in 1963
with the Lyman #311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most
of my rifle shooting is done with these two basic designs.

Bullets I intend for plain based loads are blunted using a flat-nosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat
which makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes them from my heavier gas-checked loads.
This makes more sense to me than casting different bullets.

Bullet preparation is easy. I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross defects into the scrap box
for remelting. Bullets with minor visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without sizing, and are used for
plain base plinkers. Bullets which are visually perfect are weighed and sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain for use in
200 yard matches. Gas checks are pressed onto bullet bases by hand prior to running into the lubricator-sizer. For gascheck bullets loaded without the gas- checks, for cases like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and 30-06,
I use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning powder. These include, but are not limited to Bullseye, WW231, SR-7625,
Green Dot, Red Dot or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9 grains of medium rate burning pistol or shotgun
powders, such as Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British or larger.

In the 7.62x39 case, use no more than 4 grains of the fast burning powders mentioned or 5 grains of the shotgun
powders. Theses make accurate 50 yard small game loads which let you operate the action manually and save your
precious cases. These plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.

Repeated loading of rimless cases with very mild loads results in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless
flash holes are enlarged with a No. 39 drill bit to 0.099" diameter. Cases which are so modified must never be used
with full powered loads! Always identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove across the rim and
labeling them clearly to prevent their inadvertent use. For this reason on I prefer to do my plain based practice shooting
in rimmed cases like the 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive headspace on the rim
and are not subject to this limitation.

The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise

Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his 100 yard target load because this was common with the lead
bullet .32-40 target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with non gas- checked bullets in military rifles at
lower velocities approaching match grade .22 long rifle ammunition. I use my "Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-
1100 f.p.s. to replace both Mattern's "small game" and "100 yard target" loads, though I have lumped it with the latter
since it really serves the same purpose. It's report is only a modest "pop" rather than a "crack".
If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal bullet stability, increase the charge no more than a full
grain from the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy. If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is
more blunt and short for its weight because it will be more easily stabilized. If this doesn't do the trick, you must
change to a gas-checked bullet and a heavier load.

The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200 yard Target"

My favorite load is the most accurate. Mattern's so-called "200 yard target load." I expect 10 shot groups at 200 yards,
firing prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high Sharpshooter, low Expert scores across the course with an
issue 03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using may cast bullet loads. The power of this load approximates the
32-40, inadequate for deer by today's standards. Mattern's "200 yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it is a
mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy than harder ones, such as linotype. Local military collectorshooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the "universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a
150-180 grain cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use 16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as
high power competitors use 168 Sierra Match Kings and 4895.

The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of #2400 provides a maximum load, and which must not
be exceeded, is in the tiny 7.63x39mm case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably with charges of #2400 as light as 14
grains with the Lee 312-155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially for the 7.62x39, but it works
very well as a light bullet in any .30 or .303 caliber rifle.

Sixteen Grains of #2400 is the Universal Load

The same 16 grain charge of #2400 is universal for all calibers as a starting load. It is mild and accurate in any larger
military case from a 30-40 Krag or .303 British up through a 30-06 or 7.9x57, with standard weight bullets of suitable
diameter for the caliber. This is my recommendation for anybody trying cast bullets loads for the first time in a
military rifle without prior load development. I say this because #2400 is not "position sensitive", requires no fiber
fillers to ensure uniform ignition, and actually groups better when you stripper-clip load the rifle and bang them off,
rather than tipping the muzzle up to position the powder charge.

Similar ballistics can be obtained with other powders in any case from 7.62x39 to 30-06 size. If you don't have
Hercules #2400, you can freely substitute 17 grains of IMR or H4227, 18 grains of 4198, 21 grains of Reloder 7, 24
grains of IMR 3031, or 25.5 grains of 4895 for comparable results.

However, these other powders may give some vertical stringing in cases larger than the 7.62x39 unless the charge is
positioned against the primer by tipping the muzzle up before firing. Hercules #2400 does not require this precaution.
Don't ask me why. Hercules #2400 usually gives tight clusters only within a narrow range of charge weights within a
grain or so, and the "universal" 16 grain load is almost always the best. Believe me, we have spent a lot of time trying
to improve on this, and you can take our word for it.

The beauty of the "200 yard target load" at about 1500 f.p.s. is that it can be assembled from bullets cast from the
cheapest, inexpensive scrap alloy, and fired all day without having to clean the bore. It always works. Leading is never
a problem. Once a uniform bore condition is established, the rifle behaves like a .22 match rifle, perhaps needing a
warming shot or two if it has cooled, but otherwise being remarkably consistent.

The only thing I do after a day's shooting with this load is to swab the bore with a couple of wet patches of GI bore
cleaner or Hoppe's, and let it soak until the next match. I then follow with three dry patches prior to firing. It takes
only about three foulers to get the 03A3 to settle into tight little clusters again.

"Deer and Long Range Target Load"

Mattern's "deer and 600 yard target load" can be assembled in cases of 30-40 Krag capacity or larger up to 30-06 using
18-21 grains of #2400 or 4227, 22-25 grains of 4198, 25-28 grains of RL-7 or 27-30 grains of 4895, which give from
1700-1800 f.p.s., depending on the case size. These charges must not be used in cases smaller than the 303 British
without cross checking against published data! The minimum charge should always be used initially, and the charge
adjusted within the specified range only as necessary to get best grouping.

Popular folklore suggests a barrel must be near perfect for good results with cast bullets, but this is mostly bunk,
though you may have to be persistent.

I have a rusty-bored Finnish M28/30 which I have shot extensively, in making direct comparisons with the same
batches of loads on the same day with a mint M28 and there was no difference. The secret in getting a worn bore to
shoot acceptably is to remove all prior fouling and corrosion. Then you must continue to clean the bore "thoroughly
and often" until it maintains a consistent bore condition over the long term. You must also keep cast bullet loads under
1800 f.p.s. for hunting and under 1600 f.p.s. for target work.

A cleaned and restored bore will usually give good accuracy with cast bullet loads if the bullet fits the chamber throat
properly, is well lubricated and the velocities are kept below 1800 f.p.s.

The distinction between throat diameter and groove diameter in determining proper bullet size is important. If you are
unable to determine throat diameter from a chamber cast, a rule of thumb is to size bullets .002" over groove diameter,
such as .310" for a 30-06, .312" for a 7.63x54R and .314" for a .303 British.

"Oversized 30's", like the .303 British, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argentine, and 7.62x39 Russian frequently give poor accuracy
with .30 caliber cast bullets designed for U.S. barrels having .300 bore and .308 groove dimensions. This is because the
part of the bullet ahead of the driving bands receives no guidance from the lands in barrel s of larger bore diameter.
The quick rule of thumb to checking proper fit of the forepart is to insert the bullet, nose first, into the muzzle. If it
enters clear up to the front driving band without being noticeably engraved, accuracy will seldom be satisfactory.
The forepart is not too large if loaded rounds can be chambered with only slight resistance, the bullet does not
telescope back into the case, or stick in the throat when extracted without firing. A properly fitting cast bullet should
engrave the forepart positively with the lands, and be no more than .001" under chamber throat diameter on the driving
bands. Cast bullets with a tapered forepart at least .002" over bore diameter give the best results.

Many pre-WWII Russian rifles of US make, and later Finnish reworks, particularly those with Swiss barrels by the
firm SIG, have very snug chamber necks and cannot be used with bullets over .311" diameter unless case necks are
reamed or outside turned to .011" wall thickness to provide safe clearance.

Bullets with a large forepart, like the Lee 312-155-2R or Lyman #314299 work best with the 7.62x54R because the
forcing cones are large and gradual. Standard .30 caliber gas-checks are correct.
Finnish 7.62x54R, Russian 7.62x39 and 7.65 Argentine barrels are smaller than Russian 7.62x54R, Chinese 7.62x39,
Jap 7.7 or .303 British barrels, and usually have standard .300" bore diameter. (Finnish barrels occasionally are as
small as .298") and groove diameters of .310 -.3115".

In getting the best grouping with iron sighted military rifles, eyesight is the limiting factor. Anybody over age 40 who
shoots iron sights should equip himself with a "Farr-Sight" from Gil Hebard or Brownell's. This adjustable aperture for
your eyeglass frame was intended for indoor pistol shooters, but it helps my iron sight rifle shooting, and adds about 5
points to my score!

So now you have enough fundamentals to get started. If you want to have fun, give that old military rifle a try. You'll
never know the fun you've been missing until you try it!

[Rumple]

Back to the range    Winchesters looked better, the the group was closer but still a few flyers, going to try more powder and try another powder, but nobody has stock of any 7.62x39 powder in my neck of the woods. Opened a fresh tin of S265 but didn't seem to make a difference.

Out of desperation I ordered a Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold C312-155-2R and a Lee Bullet Sizing Kit .311 and a few hundred 30 cal lyman gas checks...I have a friend who casts bullets, I'll ask him to make me a few . After countless poo-choob videos I see people say that one of the problems with 7.62x39 is the neck is very short, if the bullet is deeper than the neck length would that be a major issue? I measured the last lot of silver rapids so that the were just shorter than the neck length, and they also seemed a bit better but not great, I also pointed the rifle up so that the powder goes to the back of the case and it seemed to improve but it could have just been a coincidence.

If the cast boolits don't work or the different powder, I will probably throw in the towel and get a AR15 in 223 

[Rumple]

I had a dog and he's name was Bingo Managed to get some CFE-BLK and the groups are good enough to shoot ipsc but my hopes of running light loads to reduce recoil may only work with the silver rapids...those loads PK the brass and throw them into the next range

Does that brass look like its showing signs of over pressure? The Winchesters were running 2407 fps in the chrono