Today I am feeling smug

[zguy]

But why the Creedmoor hate ? Being a bit like a jilted lover with sour grapes that the ex didn't work out ? It's just another cartridge. Lots of them as or more anaemic. Please elucidate,, I'm curious.

BMW car, blonde girlfriend, Kershaw knife and Glock pistol

Or the whole Ford vs Toyota gaggery,

Or how one braais...

The braai part. There will be a civil war between the wood guys and the petrol station briquettes guys lol.
At least they can agree that Gas Braai is not a real braai, but it does work lekker for breakfast! 

[Treeman]

So - back to the original question.
Who would use a annealing service, what would an attractive price be.

If I were to offer R380 per 100 cases including return postage ? 

New question, someone said to me yesterday, " not enough people understand proper annealing, not enough people have done the maths, and then not enough people shoot enough to care "

[oafpatroll]

I wouldn't pay for annealing. I reload to shoot more within my budget constraint and paying for someone else to do something I can for a lot less money doesn't appeal. In addition to that I would have doubts about the quality and consistency of the process as that's something the results of which most people can't effectively test and it has potential safety implications. I would have doubts about it in much the same way as I do about 'factory reloaded' ammo. For it to be useful it needs to be done to a pretty specific recipe and deviating enough from that can cause problems ranging from irritating to really serious. One case in a batch that's cooked for too long has the potential to do as much mischief as a double charge in a reload. There definitely are people who pay for the service though as there are those who pay to service their bicycles or have their takkies cleaned. 

[oafpatroll]

The braai part. There will be a civil war between the wood guys and the petrol station briquettes guys lol.
At least they can agree that Gas Braai is not a real braai, but it does work lekker for breakfast! 

Give me sekelbos or give me death! I'm down to my last 5 bags or so from a stash f a 100 that I bought off a guy that was clearing a cattle farm of the stuff. It's like a fuel and seasoning in one and I need to rustle up some more of the stuff. 

[Ds J]

I shoot too little; it wouldn't be feasible.

[big5ifty]

So - back to the original question.
Who would use a annealing service, what would an attractive price be.

If I were to offer R380 per 100 cases including return postage ? 

New question, someone said to me yesterday, " not enough people understand proper annealing, not enough people have done the maths, and then not enough people shoot enough to care "

Firstly, with any business venture, ignore the nay-sayers.

Second, the price must be reasonable. A reasonable price of annealing means it comes in at a fraction of the cost of brass replacement. Decide what fraction, and that means you will not have a flat price per case, it's  a price per case by caliber. For example, some .223 brass is dirt cheap, you can't charge more for annealing that what it costs to buy used PMP. On the other hand, R10 per case for 500  Jeffery is very reasonable.

That will lead to the third point - demand for the service. If the pricing and service are good, it will create a demand where there may not be.

The courier cost can be a flat rate, people will decide if it's worth the quantity of brass.

Don't under-sell. There is a huge time component, which is not free like when you're reloading for yourself. There is a risk component - if you lose / damage / melt one piece of my lapua BMG brass, we could end up disputing if you have to buy a new box of 20 at R5000 and give me one piece, or if you pay me R250.  Make sure there is a clear policy regarding loss / damage / replacement that the customer accepts.

[Treeman]

Thank you for the above, some things to consider yes.

[zguy]

Treeman, could you offer a precision package where you resize primer pockets, make flash holes uniform, clean and tumble and trim neck length?

This would be a nice service at a gun store or reloading place.

[Treeman]

Treeman, could you offer a precision package where you resize primer pockets, make flash holes uniform, clean and tumble and trim neck length?

This would be a nice service at a gun store or reloading place.

******************************
I doubt you would be able to do it all and charge a value for person doing it thats related to my/our kind of expected income. The cost of all taken into account would exceed the value of the brass, unless its the R150 a case type of brass. If it is, you will find the owner is the kind of guy that does it all himself - by desire to do so.

[oafpatroll]

I doubt you would be able to do it all and charge a value for person doing it thats related to my/our kind of expected income. The cost of all taken into account would exceed the value of the brass, unless its the R150 a case type of brass. If it is, you will find the owner is the kind of guy that does it all himself - by desire to do so.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the proportion of 150 buck a case shooters who would pay for a service like that is higher than for the general dolled up AR/AK kind of punter. 

[Newton]

I just received my induction annealer, and its Friday - the first should assure that not much else gets done with the other.
Gonna anneal everything I guess       

Anybody else use one ?

Wwwell

Would help if we knew which annealer it was / is ..
I immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was AMP  ( Annealing made perfect )

MARK II DB ANNEALER

I then looked at Treeman's video and noticed the brand name .. "QUICK ANNEAL"

QUICK ANNEAL

Based off of plans that were freely provided on an Internet site and discussed at - Gunsite

For Twenty thousand bucks I will rather try the hot lead process ( just as quick and repeatable once set up )

The process explained:

Ok, my process isn't high tech or anything.
I bought a cheap lead melting pot, and melted in a few big fishing sinkers from Walmart.
This is not very pure lead, so contaminants form at the top during use. I skim this out with an old screwdriver.

With pot temperature adjustment, I use an old Omega thermocouple/indicator inserted in the lead, and have verified it's readings with a handheld laser thermometer(borrowed from work). I set temp at 675deg highest, which can drop as low as 600deg depending on the rate I'm dipping cases. With each dip some heat sinks away to the case, and the cheap built-in controller raises temp to compensate -with a bit of overshoot.
So my window is ~600 to 675deg.
This recrystallizes(stress relieves) the case both from the inside and outside, without risking annealing.

Before lead dipping I pour Mobil1 oil in a plastic ammo box and insert my cases mouth down into it. Then I stand the cases up on a nail board with paper towels to further drain. Nice thin layer.
I've tried many oils/coatings and Mobil1 is the only coating I know of that can withstand these temps long enough, and not seperate from the cases during dipping. Amsoil synthetic might work, I don't know. Don't even try the other synthetics available, they'll just burn off with a flame, and you'll pull an elephant foot out permanently affixed to your case.
Even Mobil1 eventually burns. But it takes a couple minutes, and is not an issue provided you keep the amount low(hence, thin layer).

To dip, I just pick up a case with a leather glove and very slowly lower into the lead(maybe 1/8" per sec), and once reaching my desired point, I raise the case back out at the same rate. Very slowly. The oil forms a ring that flows up the case away from the surface of the lead pool. This leaves just enough of something(surface oxidation?)on the brass to keep lead from soldering to it. The case feels dry afterwards, -where it contacted lead. But if you go too fast with inserting or removing, this coating fails to form and lead sticks.
For new 6.5WSSM brass I needed to form new body taper & shoulder angles on, I timed 45sec total dip for stress relieving to center of the case bodies. Slowly In/slowly out in 45sec. My wife helped me measure caseheads while doing so, and we get less than 200deg. Brass is unaffected below 450deg, so I'm confident in the control offered by lead dipping(over any other method). You could not easily go so far down a short case with a torch, without ruining it.
For simple neck/shoulder with normal thickness brass, you could probably hold the caseheads with your bare hand.
Completed dipping, I drop the cases in a pan of Citrisolv, or whatever degreasing agent provided for me in the kitchen. Then I tumble. The brass darkens only slightly where stress relieved. Less than factory discoloration.

People rule out lead dipping due to risks with fumes and the evil energy in that pot. They rationalize that torching is easier –therefore better? Why is easier always better??
Annealing begins ~900+degs. How do you know a torch has produced the correct temperature all the way through the brass, and not 1000deg on the outside and 200deg inside?

Anyway,,
I dip outside with a box fan behind the pot, pointed down wind. Lock away any cats or dogs beforehand, and just be careful not to dump the lead or drop anything into it. Pretty much the same precautions needed with a torch.
Overall, it's less painful than turning, and about the same pain as bumping.
I only stress relieve when needed. I know when I reach this point because I comparative measure & watch neck tension, and when bumps fail to consistently hold, it's time. With the minimum sizing I do, I can easily go 10 reloads before re-dipping. With the 6.5WSSM batch referenced I am just at this point(26 reloads).

That's it!
And with this you could apparently walk among Supermen..

Annealing-with-lead-process


The process - with images

Lead pot annealing

[Newton]

Treeman, could you offer a precision package where you resize primer pockets, make flash holes uniform, clean and tumble and trim neck length?

This would be a nice service at a gun store or reloading place.

Too manually tedious - Too much time and labour involved
Most serious reloaders can do this themselves - inexpensively

How many gun-shops have you been to - and looked at their reloading section ?
Tell me about one where you can actually see ALL of the reloading equipment in actual working action - with detailed explanation of what all the parts are and what they do

I am convinced that a careful - serious - knowledgeable reloader using basic equipment can produce competition ammo.
Where the very expensive equipment comes into play is TIME-SAVING
When you are shooting / reloading thousands of rounds you need every labour and time-saving device you can buy !
Forget about all the extra super-duper microscopic accuracy gizmos- how much more accuracy does R50,000.00 buy you ?
BMW .. FORGET it - "THIS" .. is "ROLLS-ROYCE" territory

Good luck if you want to spend R350,000.00 on reloading gear !!!!!!!!!!
PS ;
I know people who have set-ups like this

[Treeman]

I sometimes wonder about you, list your weapons here please, be interesting to see the weapons behind the knowlige.

[big5ifty]

For Twenty thousand bucks I will rather try the hot lead process ( just as quick and repeatable once set up )

Stress relief in brass is proportional to temperature.

There is not enough heat in molten lead, when performed under garage conditions, to do a proper job, and more importantly, the ability to control the heat to give consistent results between batches. Just because the brass changes color due to heat, it doesn't automatically mean it's stress relieved to any particular degree. 

Unless you're just annealing to purely stress relieve, not consistent neck tension for precision, in which case a candle will work too.

A gas annealer is a far more sensible choice to start with.

If it's going to be a service, then the electric machine is the way to go. Fast and precisely repeatable.

[Newton]

I sometimes wonder about you, list your weapons here please, be interesting to see the weapons behind the knowlige.

Some people say you cannot write about the WWII on the Eastern front if you are not fluent in German and Russian.
Some people say you cannot write about ( or have ideas about ) firearms unless you have a whole armoury and reload for every cartridge .. and are also a World class champion shotist !

I have owned.. ( one or two licenced by my late father )
A Browning .380 ACP
A Ruger 45 long colt
A S&W 357 magnum
A Ruger Mini 14 in .223
A Sako in .222
A .410 DB shotgun
A DB 12 Ga shotgun

An R1 in .308 which I had for a year c/o - Oom Piet Botha
As well as an LMG when I was on the border in the Caprivi

When I returned to civilisation I sold all my firearms

I now have a 30-06 and a 300WM paid for and just waiting on paperwork

I have been around firearms and firearm owners and shooters for quite a long time

I reloaded for most of the firearms I owned - starting in 1976 when I was still at school
I have had and sold THREE sets of reloading gear at different times.

I have also shot with a number of other weapons owned by friends and at the range

Do I consider myself an "expert" ..not at all
I am however quite happy to make use of the knowledge of others far more knowledgeable and experienced than myself.
IF we were all "experts" then there would be no need for books or any other method of acquiring knowledge outside of personal experience !