Enough gun

[Treeman]

Understood. For the record I wasn't accusing you. It was a general observation by someone who gets mouthy at people in the field who treat animals with disrespect and cruelty. In the hands of someone who shoots a lot of animals an 'iffy' calibre isn't the same as for a typist muppet like me. 
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And this why i want to know. The last thing I need is for little Mary Anne to shoot, loose and be put off for life because her first buck mad e noises, or simply bled some and ran off.
Terminal ballistics has been a fascination of mine since my first Kudu (3 in a hour or two) with a .223.
I actually almost have like a mental chart in my head - dead, deader and deaderer, would never be able to explain it, but even mono bullets versus cup and core have a spot on the mental chart. The mono bullets kill slower than the cup and core, but that changes the smaller the caliber becomes, but mono's get better the bigger the caliber becomes.

[Newton]

Load up some of those heavy bullets - that will work with the rifles twist rate
Make up a bullet test bed / stop with a number of ( wet and soaked ) old telephone directories ( or similar )
Do some accuracy and penetration tests - will give a good approximation of effect on game
Get as close as possible before taking shot - from a comfortable steady rest

[Treeman]

Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.

[Newton]

Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.

Testing a bit better to give some sort of idea rather than shooting into the unknown ?
Be interesting to do a comparison
Post photos ...

[Treeman]

I was looking at loads today and this came to light, I wonder how relevant my thoughts are?
I have a 2555 fps load for the 7 -08 154 gr bullet, but feel its too slow, I want the 2670 fps node. Someone said would the animal even know the difference ?
The bullet arrives at 300 m with about 1500 ftlb energy, thats about the same as a 60 gr .223 bullet at 50 yards. Right, so its almost like guys kill kudu with a 223 when they shoot them at 300 m with a 7 mm 154 gr bullet shot at 2555 fps. If you take the same energy 223 and shoot a kudu at 50 yards you will very likely have a very different result in regard to affect. (Leave CNS shots and bullet construction out of this). Both bullets arrived with same energy, one 5.5 mm, the other 1.5 mm larger, the one kills more often than not, the other is not even considered ethical, why ?.

The second thing I saw was that the difference between the 2555 fps bullet and the 2670 fps was about 150 ft lbs, the same as a .22 - which in its own right can kill things. So by losing a 150 fps, you lost a whole .22 in power.
Dunno where I am going with this, but I found this worth thinking about and enjoyed the findings.

I posted the numbers from memory, but they close enough I guess.

[Ds J]

A wise old man explained it like this when I was young: for argument's sake, and exaggerated to make it clearer, one could ask whether you would prefer to be hit by a train at 5km/h or the tip of a whip at the sound of speed? Both carry the same amount of energy (mass x speed), but in different terms. The train flattens a house whereas the whip doesn't even make a mark. On the other hand, the whip splits skin and the train gives you a gentle shove.

The amount of mass in a bullet makes a very big difference in its performance.

[big5ifty]

There are probably good reasons why most of the old DG cartridges, irrespective of caliber, sent their heaviest bullets at around 2200 fps.

I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.

[Treeman]

Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?

[oafpatroll]

I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.

A Brown Bess musket with the prescribed charge was barely supersonic and pass throughs of multiple human targets in seried ranks were not uncommon. I have very little doubt that a bullet of reasonable hardness and equivalent mass could go through a kudu.

[Ds J]

Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?

The speed is not that important; the mass is way more important for penetration. Very low speed has to do a bullet failing to open. If the shot is accurate it will still be a clean kill. I shoot 180gr at 2440fps and it clears a kudu at 300m. A 308 with 165gr/168gr bullets kills equally well. Therefore, I assume that the 154gr bullet will do the job. The higher speed will improve the trajectory.

If 140gr and 150gr 6.5mm bullets (6.5mm Swedish) can kill at roughly 2600fps, your 154gr will kill too.

See if you can get the accurate node without too much pressure. Then you cab decide whether it is necessary.

[Againstthegrains]

I find that firearms often perform best when they are close to their maximum charge. The only reason I can think of why, is that the case fill is better, leading to a more consistent powder burn. Looking at the data for that bullet weight with a 22' barrel at node #6, velocity is 2550ft/sec. This is an overly 'comfortable' load. However, the next node #5 is at 2660ft/sec, but that is very close to the pressure limits for the caliber. If you went for a slightly lighter 150gr bullet, then the chances of the load being safe are better.

I would try it out. I don't think you will blow you gun up at 2660, but just see if you start having pressure signs like an abrupt recoil, stiff bolt handle, flattened primers etc then don't.

Like I said, its marginal, but probably not fatal, your gun will tell you if you should turn back.

[Treeman]

Rifle just shoots so 243 like at 2555 fps, its like a silenced .223, I am thinking the added enjoyment, accuracy and confidence is perhaps worth the 140 fps loss.

Plus + PLUS, I forgot, this is supposed to be an Impala specific rifle load, a load for reduced meat damage on Impala at under 200 m, usually 80 - 140 m.
I think that answers that question, in my enthusiasm I forgot why this all started out ------Impala
Remember this post ? This is what started this rifle, and I got carried away again chasing velocity.
https://allgunstuff.co.za/index.php?topic=741.0

[janfred]

As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small

[Treeman]

As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small

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almost half less bullet weight would be a consideration in this matter.