Negligent discharges ...

[oafpatroll]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuB1QPkg8QA

High speed without the low drag.

[oafpatroll]

I've done numerous new shooter intro type sessions over the last 30 years and have been criticised for being too hard core on the safety and procedure element of the experience. This video is a perfect worked example of what a fustercluck in the making looks like and why if anyone who comes to shoot with me wants to whine about procedure they can make alternative arrangements.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/1gu1zgw/polish_shooting_judge_accidentally_shoots_a/?rdt=59527

[janfred]

Not sure about accidental. Definitely negligent.

[NoStepOnSnek88]

I was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.

A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.

Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?

And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.

I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.

I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.

But if you have a hammer gun, for example like myself the CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW then you have to load your magazine, chamber the round and then grab the hammer and pull the trigger to let the hammer down, as your first shot must be DA in IPSC and SADPA (IDPA), in Steel Challenge as well if I do remember correctly.

I've always personally racked my slide, then using my left index finger and thumb to grip the hammer before pulling the trigger to let the hammer down, I'm right handed, what I'm trying to say is I've seen other shooters do it with their thumb only on their strong hand, like a hollywood cowboy type method.

[NoStepOnSnek88]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share

If you look closely you can actually see his finger isn't near the trigger.

https://youtu.be/ADGyglYqeoM?si=i5GSZTEfD6d2Y5GO

[NoStepOnSnek88]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share

You can look at this video, it has some additional information, for example that's not the retention hood it's a tourniquet.

https://youtu.be/iUe8Fns2v-w?si=vyZ2jL8ETmnSQbqi

I think there might be two possible theories that kinda makes sense for the uncommanded discharges, but it is difficult to determine if some other factors weren't at play, and if the couple of shooters who've shared their stories are just full of shit or like I've said maybe there was something else that was missed.

[janfred]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share

If you look closely you can actually see his finger isn't near the trigger.

https://youtu.be/ADGyglYqeoM?si=i5GSZTEfD6d2Y5GO

Well, this looks like a sport shooter of some experience with a race gun. I can think of a number of mods that can be done to a sport pistol to lighten the trigger pull that, if done incorrectly, can quite easily cause unwanted discharges. I would give an extremely high probability that this was caused by an aftermarket modification to lighten the trigger weight done incorrectly. So, even though his finger wasn't on trigger I would still class this as negligent.

[oafpatroll]

I was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.

A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.

Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?

And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.

I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.

I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.

But if you have a hammer gun, for example like myself the CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW then you have to load your magazine, chamber the round and then grab the hammer and pull the trigger to let the hammer down, as your first shot must be DA in IPSC and SADPA (IDPA), in Steel Challenge as well if I do remember correctly.

I've always personally racked my slide, then using my left index finger and thumb to grip the hammer before pulling the trigger to let the hammer down, I'm right handed, what I'm trying to say is I've seen other shooters do it with their thumb only on their strong hand, like a hollywood cowboy type method.

I shoot both SADPA and steel challenge from cocked and locked. Puts you in a different division. Can't remember what it is off the top of my head. Lowering the hammer on the line and shooting a stage is one thing but carrying a gun without a firing pin block is another entirely.

[oafpatroll]

If the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.

[NoStepOnSnek88]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QhlLrUdT2Zk?feature=share

If you look closely you can actually see his finger isn't near the trigger.

https://youtu.be/ADGyglYqeoM?si=i5GSZTEfD6d2Y5GO

Well, this looks like a sport shooter of some experience with a race gun. I can think of a number of mods that can be done to a sport pistol to lighten the trigger pull that, if done incorrectly, can quite easily cause unwanted discharges. I would give an extremely high probability that this was caused by an aftermarket modification to lighten the trigger weight done incorrectly. So, even though his finger wasn't on trigger I would still class this as negligent.

The incident is explained in the video description.
"A shooter at a local match had an accidental discharge and we were lucky enough to catch it on film. This was NOT a negligent discharge as his finger was nowhere near the trigger when the gun fired.
Consider all of the things he did CORRECTLY during the incident:
1.Gun is pointed down range and in a safe direction.
2. After the discharge he did not panic, but rather surveyed the situation.
3. After surveying the situation he awaited directions from the range officer instead of wildly handling the firearm.

Also, consider all of the things that he did INCORRECTLY prior to the incident:
1. He installed an aftermarket hammer and sear that were labeled "gunsmith installation only".
2. He disabled the firing pin block safety on his firearm for a shorter reset.
In his defense, this handgun had been tested and run weekly at ranges for roughly 1,000 rounds before the sear engagement failed and caused the accidental discharge."

[NoStepOnSnek88]

I was sceptical at first until I tried to duplicate it at the shooting range. Well, there is a very good reason for a firing pin block on subsequent models. And a good reason not to carry a pre-B unless absolutely essential.

A pre-B is far better carried cocked with the safety engaged. Getting it into a ready state in DA is an inherently dangerous procedure on its own. I'd hazard a guess that more NDs have happened doing that than due to the lack of a firing pin block.

Not quite sure what you mean "getting it into a ready state in DA". Just like any other SA/DA pistol, it is already ready. Just pull the trigger. Am I missing something?

And yes, carrying cocked and safety on is probably safer. Hell, cocked with safety off is not that much worse than a SA only pistol, provided you keep the trigger covered.

I meant with a round chambered and the hammer down such that it's ready to fire with a DA trigger pull. To achieve that with a pre-B (or any non decocker 75) you have to control the hammer down while pulling the trigger. That's an inherently risky thing to do before you get to the problems associated with the lack of a firing pin block.

I happily carry my pre-B sports gun 'cocked and locked' but you couldn't pay me enough to do so with it either cocked and unlocked or hammer down with a round chambered.

But if you have a hammer gun, for example like myself the CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW then you have to load your magazine, chamber the round and then grab the hammer and pull the trigger to let the hammer down, as your first shot must be DA in IPSC and SADPA (IDPA), in Steel Challenge as well if I do remember correctly.

I've always personally racked my slide, then using my left index finger and thumb to grip the hammer before pulling the trigger to let the hammer down, I'm right handed, what I'm trying to say is I've seen other shooters do it with their thumb only on their strong hand, like a hollywood cowboy type method.

I shoot both SADPA and steel challenge from cocked and locked. Puts you in a different division. Can't remember what it is off the top of my head. Lowering the hammer on the line and shooting a stage is one thing but carrying a gun without a firing pin block is another entirely.

I'm not to familiar with SADPA (IDPA) rules or divisions, but I understand what you are saying, in IPSC there's no alternative you have to drop the hammer.
That being said, I wouldn't recommend carry a Shadow type firearm as a defense gun.

[NoStepOnSnek88]

If the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.

I don't believe it would be easily proved,  as there's probably a few things that need to go "wrong" in this scenario, and also I think independent testing would cost a shit load of money.

[oafpatroll]

If the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.

I don't believe it would be easily proved,  as there's probably a few things that need to go "wrong" in this scenario, and also I think independent testing would cost a shit load of money.

Nope. It's a very simple mechanical device with small number of parts. If it's possessed of the ability to fire itself a couple of engineers with experience in the field couldn't avoid finding that on the first day. Given the losses that are likely being inflicted on SIG by this witch hunt and the scale of the awards coming through it would be cheap at the price. In the example you cited above you say the shooter replaced his trigger with an aftermarket unit and removed the firing pin block. The notion of linking a gun so modified to 'the SIG magical discharge phenomenon' is a perfect example of what's wrong with the whole show. It's inherently illogical and feels based with great big pots of money waiting for those who can play the bizarre US damages lotto well.

[NoStepOnSnek88]

If the SIGs that have been the subject of the mad payouts were capable of discharging themselves it would be easy enough to prove that in controlled independent testing of them. That hasn't happened and the prosecution in two of the payout cases admitted that they couldn't. Almost all the noise I've heard in this has been made by social media talking heads who haven't read the judgements.

I don't believe it would be easily proved,  as there's probably a few things that need to go "wrong" in this scenario, and also I think independent testing would cost a shit load of money.

Nope. It's a very simple mechanical device with small number of parts. If it's possessed of the ability to fire itself a couple of engineers with experience in the field couldn't avoid finding that on the first day. Given the losses that are likely being inflicted on SIG by this witch hunt and the scale of the awards coming through it would be cheap at the price. In the example you cited above you say the shooter replaced his trigger with an aftermarket unit and removed the firing pin block. The notion of linking a gun so modified to 'the SIG magical discharge phenomenon' is a perfect example of what's wrong with the whole show. It's inherently illogical and feels based with great big pots of money waiting for those who can play the bizarre US damages lotto well.

So you are adamant that 100% of all the cases are definitely some type of user error "negligent discharge"  or some type of object getting snagged in the holster or trigger causing the trigger to be depressed?

Besides the drop safety and the uncommanded discharges, there's a lot of P320's that has suffered out of battery detonations as well.

[oafpatroll]

So you are adamant that 100% of all the cases are definitely some type of user error "negligent discharge"  or some type of object getting snagged in the holster or trigger causing the trigger to be depressed?

Besides the drop safety and the uncommanded discharges, there's a lot of P320's that has suffered out of battery detonations as well.

I'm not 100% certain about anything other than noise on the internet being something best ignored. What I'm saying, and I don't think this is remotely controversial is that there has been no proof presented of SIGs being able to fire themselves without the trigger being manipulated to the sear release point.

As mentioned before, the prosecutions in two of the cases where awards were made admitted that the guns in question couldn't fire without said manipulation. The most likely reason for people to shoot themselves with a bone stock service pistol is them pulling the trigger while pointing it at themselves. Next most likely is obstructions in the holster or bad holster design/manufacture that allows the trigger to be dragged while holstered. Way down the list of likely reasons is manufacturing defect and even further down than that is an inherent design flaw. Unlikely but not impossible and also very far from impossible to identify and replicate with the sample guns in hand. The fact that a plausible explanation hasn't been put forward, even in the cases where big money has been awarded, says more to me about the likely answer than anything else.

The drop safety thing was resolved with a general recall and redesign early in its sales life. None of the current round of magical discharge cases even hint at that being a factor.

Can you point me to the OOB detonation reports? I'd be interested to read them over. Given the vast sums of money spent by the US military in trials I'd be more than a bit surprised to find that there was something inherent in the 320's design that made it any more susceptible to OOB than any other gun of it's type. How to avoind them has been well understood for well over 100 years.