Enough gun

@T @treeman 2 years ago

I have been wanting to hunt using a less than adequate caliber for some time now, but morals and ethics have stopped that from happening.
Cody too has been wanting to hunt a Impala with a .22 and I have been telling him its wrong. I have heard myself saying things like "its wrong to do so if you have a better means of killing" - "its a living thing my boy, not a fun and games toy" ETc ETC. BUT ! still the challenge and thought of "I can do it" remains.

Cody has his first rifle still, a ruger .233 with a 20 inch barrel and it is now our cheap shooter which gets just a bit less than the .22 down the barrel - like 100 shots a go. This .223 is fed bulk buy Hornady bullets which I buy at a 1000 per purchase, V Max and Sierra GK 63 gr bullets. The VMax bullets were used for vermin control and the GK bullets for a 7 year olds first animals, Duiker and Duiker and a small w/hog or 3.

I have tuned the loads for all 3 bullets to be within 5 mm horizontally and 4.5 cm vertically - the VMax is 4.5 + and the GK is 3 cm + at 100 m

On this last hunt I took my old 303 along as my bit of a challenge rifle ;D , but when we got there there was a issue, the scope seems to have died and I can not hit a A 4 page at 100 m. 10 shots later i got the message, scope is ISM, not gonna fix that here and now.
I looked at the 223 and tried to recall all the game shot with it and the results, I reasoned about shot placement and a hole through heart is a whole through heart, its dead - you do not get degrees of dead.

So to cut it short, I shot a impala at about 80 - 100 m. The shot was perhaps a bit further back than perfect, but far from a bad shot(hanging in photo it looks further back than when leg is in normal position).The shot also was not a good shot, by far. High and back end of both lungs. The 7-08 or .270 would have been no more than 30 m run same shot.
When the shot sounded, I heard the hit and watched the herd run off, they did an away and cross back in front of me 200 m down run off. Somewhere in the run the ram disappeared, or did it ? - Not sure?

I called the dog up and started a track, but the wind made her do frustrating things, and many a time I thought she was just doing dog things, playing. Going 150 m forward was a 600 m snaking back forth matter, down wind - across, up wind, across, almost back to start :o

The animal was found 150 m max from POI and it was lying down. The animal jumped up and darted when we got to it, this run went about 700 m further with a clear by eye blood trail being left along the way. Cody jogged ahead with the dog and I did a by eye follow up after the animal. It was found standing and Cody shot it again - F**** up my perfect meat shot animal with his 7 mm meat mincer. :-X
My shot was as far back as feasible, it was also only taken when I could enter and exit without hitting a leg, the 7 mm just blew it all apart .

Point of post.
If one looks in the photo, the 5.56 GK bullet exited at about 12 mm or more diameter, it hit both lungs far back - a shot that using an appropriate caliber would caused far quicker death.
The "enough gun" statement is quite clear to me.

I have not included an entrance photo as there is nothing to see, no hole so to say.

Exit wound with 7 mm damage almost visible to left.
20241019_224420 by David Frank Allen, on Flickr

Exit wound, not bad meat damage with 7 mm results seen to left.
20241020_094940 by David Frank Allen, on Flickr

Entrance from inside with finger through hole.
20241020_095018 by David Frank Allen, on Flickr

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Replies 43

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@N @newton

Load up some of those heavy bullets - that will work with the rifles twist rate
Make up a bullet test bed / stop with a number of ( wet and soaked ) old telephone directories ( or similar )
Do some accuracy and penetration tests - will give a good approximation of effect on game
Get as close as possible before taking shot - from a comfortable steady rest

@T @treeman OP

Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.

@N @newton

Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.

Testing a bit better to give some sort of idea rather than shooting into the unknown ?
Be interesting to do a comparison
Post photos ...

@T @treeman OP

I was looking at loads today and this came to light, I wonder how relevant my thoughts are?
I have a 2555 fps load for the 7 -08 154 gr bullet, but feel its too slow, I want the 2670 fps node. Someone said would the animal even know the difference ?
The bullet arrives at 300 m with about 1500 ftlb energy, thats about the same as a 60 gr .223 bullet at 50 yards. Right, so its almost like guys kill kudu with a 223 when they shoot them at 300 m with a 7 mm 154 gr bullet shot at 2555 fps. If you take the same energy 223 and shoot a kudu at 50 yards you will very likely have a very different result in regard to affect. (Leave CNS shots and bullet construction out of this). Both bullets arrived with same energy, one 5.5 mm, the other 1.5 mm larger, the one kills more often than not, the other is not even considered ethical, why ?.

The second thing I saw was that the difference between the 2555 fps bullet and the 2670 fps was about 150 ft lbs, the same as a .22 - which in its own right can kill things. So by losing a 150 fps, you lost a whole .22 in power.
Dunno where I am going with this, but I found this worth thinking about and enjoyed the findings.

I posted the numbers from memory, but they close enough I guess.

@D @ds-j

A wise old man explained it like this when I was young: for argument's sake, and exaggerated to make it clearer, one could ask whether you would prefer to be hit by a train at 5km/h or the tip of a whip at the sound of speed? Both carry the same amount of energy (mass x speed), but in different terms. The train flattens a house whereas the whip doesn't even make a mark. On the other hand, the whip splits skin and the train gives you a gentle shove.

The amount of mass in a bullet makes a very big difference in its performance.

@414gates @414gates

There are probably good reasons why most of the old DG cartridges, irrespective of caliber, sent their heaviest bullets at around 2200 fps.

I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.

@T @treeman OP

Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?

@O @oafpatroll

I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.

A Brown Bess musket with the prescribed charge was barely supersonic and pass throughs of multiple human targets in seried ranks were not uncommon. I have very little doubt that a bullet of reasonable hardness and equivalent mass could go through a kudu.

@D @ds-j

Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?

The speed is not that important; the mass is way more important for penetration. Very low speed has to do a bullet failing to open. If the shot is accurate it will still be a clean kill. I shoot 180gr at 2440fps and it clears a kudu at 300m. A 308 with 165gr/168gr bullets kills equally well. Therefore, I assume that the 154gr bullet will do the job. The higher speed will improve the trajectory.

If 140gr and 150gr 6.5mm bullets (6.5mm Swedish) can kill at roughly 2600fps, your 154gr will kill too.

See if you can get the accurate node without too much pressure. Then you cab decide whether it is necessary.

@A @againstthegrains

I find that firearms often perform best when they are close to their maximum charge. The only reason I can think of why, is that the case fill is better, leading to a more consistent powder burn. Looking at the data for that bullet weight with a 22' barrel at node #6, velocity is 2550ft/sec. This is an overly 'comfortable' load. However, the next node #5 is at 2660ft/sec, but that is very close to the pressure limits for the caliber. If you went for a slightly lighter 150gr bullet, then the chances of the load being safe are better.

I would try it out. I don't think you will blow you gun up at 2660, but just see if you start having pressure signs like an abrupt recoil, stiff bolt handle, flattened primers etc then don't.

Like I said, its marginal, but probably not fatal, your gun will tell you if you should turn back.

@T @treeman OP

Rifle just shoots so 243 like at 2555 fps, its like a silenced .223, I am thinking the added enjoyment, accuracy and confidence is perhaps worth the 140 fps loss.

Plus + PLUS, I forgot, this is supposed to be an Impala specific rifle load, a load for reduced meat damage on Impala at under 200 m, usually 80 - 140 m.
I think that answers that question, in my enthusiasm I forgot why this all started out ------Impala
Remember this post ? This is what started this rifle, and I got carried away again chasing velocity.
https://allgunstuff.co.za/index.php?topic=741.0

@J @janfred

As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small

@T @treeman OP

As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small

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almost half less bullet weight would be a consideration in this matter.