Enough gun

As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small

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almost half less bullet weight would be a consideration in this matter.

As for "enough gun"; I find it quite remarkable that a lot of hunters these days see nothing wrong shooting small game with a 6mm Dasher or Creedmoor, but think a 5.6mm .224 bullet is too small

Rifle just shoots so 243 like at 2555 fps, its like a silenced .223, I am thinking the added enjoyment, accuracy and confidence is perhaps worth the 140 fps loss.

Plus + PLUS, I forgot, this is supposed to be an Impala specific rifle load, a load for reduced meat damage on Impala at under 200 m, usually 80 - 140 m.
I think that answers that question, in my enthusiasm I forgot why this all started out ------Impala
Remember this post ? This is what started this rifle, and I got carried away again chasing velocity.
https://allgunstuff.co.za/index.php?topic=741.0

I find that firearms often perform best when they are close to their maximum charge. The only reason I can think of why, is that the case fill is better, leading to a more consistent powder burn. Looking at the data for that bullet weight with a 22' barrel at node #6, velocity is 2550ft/sec. This is an overly 'comfortable' load. However, the next node #5 is at 2660ft/sec, but that is very close to the pressure limits for the caliber. If you went for a slightly lighter 150gr bullet, then the chances of the load being safe are better.

I would try it out. I don't think you will blow you gun up at 2660, but just see if you start having pressure signs like an abrupt recoil, stiff bolt handle, flattened primers etc then don't.

Like I said, its marginal, but probably not fatal, your gun will tell you if you should turn back.

Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?

The speed is not that important; the mass is way more important for penetration. Very low speed has to do a bullet failing to open. If the shot is accurate it will still be a clean kill. I shoot 180gr at 2440fps and it clears a kudu at 300m. A 308 with 165gr/168gr bullets kills equally well. Therefore, I assume that the 154gr bullet will do the job. The higher speed will improve the trajectory.

If 140gr and 150gr 6.5mm bullets (6.5mm Swedish) can kill at roughly 2600fps, your 154gr will kill too.

See if you can get the accurate node without too much pressure. Then you cab decide whether it is necessary.

I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.

A Brown Bess musket with the prescribed charge was barely supersonic and pass throughs of multiple human targets in seried ranks were not uncommon. I have very little doubt that a bullet of reasonable hardness and equivalent mass could go through a kudu.

Would you worry about getting accuracy at 2670fps abouts because 2555 is a bit slow ?

There are probably good reasons why most of the old DG cartridges, irrespective of caliber, sent their heaviest bullets at around 2200 fps.

I once asked Craig Clintworth how he thought a 500gr subsonic lead bullet would perform on game. He said he expects a clean pass-through on up to kudu size. Because with a muzzle loader, a 500 grain ball does just that, at least according to him.

A wise old man explained it like this when I was young: for argument's sake, and exaggerated to make it clearer, one could ask whether you would prefer to be hit by a train at 5km/h or the tip of a whip at the sound of speed? Both carry the same amount of energy (mass x speed), but in different terms. The train flattens a house whereas the whip doesn't even make a mark. On the other hand, the whip splits skin and the train gives you a gentle shove.

The amount of mass in a bullet makes a very big difference in its performance.

I was looking at loads today and this came to light, I wonder how relevant my thoughts are?
I have a 2555 fps load for the 7 -08 154 gr bullet, but feel its too slow, I want the 2670 fps node. Someone said would the animal even know the difference ?
The bullet arrives at 300 m with about 1500 ftlb energy, thats about the same as a 60 gr .223 bullet at 50 yards. Right, so its almost like guys kill kudu with a 223 when they shoot them at 300 m with a 7 mm 154 gr bullet shot at 2555 fps. If you take the same energy 223 and shoot a kudu at 50 yards you will very likely have a very different result in regard to affect. (Leave CNS shots and bullet construction out of this). Both bullets arrived with same energy, one 5.5 mm, the other 1.5 mm larger, the one kills more often than not, the other is not even considered ethical, why ?.

The second thing I saw was that the difference between the 2555 fps bullet and the 2670 fps was about 150 ft lbs, the same as a .22 - which in its own right can kill things. So by losing a 150 fps, you lost a whole .22 in power.
Dunno where I am going with this, but I found this worth thinking about and enjoyed the findings.

I posted the numbers from memory, but they close enough I guess.

Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.

Testing a bit better to give some sort of idea rather than shooting into the unknown ?
Be interesting to do a comparison
Post photos ...

Wet packs tell one nothing about a bullets terminal behaviour in living tissue, they do how ever serve the purpose of making a bullet recoverable for just to look at reasons.

Load up some of those heavy bullets - that will work with the rifles twist rate
Make up a bullet test bed / stop with a number of ( wet and soaked ) old telephone directories ( or similar )
Do some accuracy and penetration tests - will give a good approximation of effect on game
Get as close as possible before taking shot - from a comfortable steady rest

Understood. For the record I wasn't accusing you. It was a general observation by someone who gets mouthy at people in the field who treat animals with disrespect and cruelty. In the hands of someone who shoots a lot of animals an 'iffy' calibre isn't the same as for a typist muppet like me.

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And this why i want to know. The last thing I need is for little Mary Anne to shoot, loose and be put off for life because her first buck mad e noises, or simply bled some and ran off.
Terminal ballistics has been a fascination of mine since my first Kudu (3 in a hour or two) with a .223.
I actually almost have like a mental chart in my head - dead, deader and deaderer, would never be able to explain it, but even mono bullets versus cup and core have a spot on the mental chart. The mono bullets kill slower than the cup and core, but that changes the smaller the caliber becomes, but mono's get better the bigger the caliber becomes.

A 223 can kill - very fast, very efficiently, but with the right shot placement.

'n Goeie vriend van my skiet amper alles met sy 223, en hy het sy kinders ook leer jag met dieselfde 223. Nogtans verkies hy 'n groter kaliber vir groter wild, want daar is net meer ruimte indien iets sou skeefloop.

To answer your question regarding the girl, please consider the following: one has to take her psyche and her capabilities into account. If she has been practicing with the 223 for the past year for her first animal, and the animals are not too wild or shy, let her use it. Maybe stand by with another rifle. Giving her another rifle to hunt with has the potential to throw her off her game and causing a wounded animal, where her own rifle would have meant a kil shot.

Shooting at animals with an iffy ammunition choice because you want to try it out is poor form. No different to hunting drunk. Causing unnecessary suffering to satisfy your curiosity or to stroke your ego makes you a doos.

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You sound a lot like me regarding animals and cages, spears and captivity and circus's. I think you got me a bit wrong with the .223 matter Oaf. I have no intention of experimenting or challenging myself with smaller and smaller calibers etc.
I do how ever want to know. I want to know can I allow a 12 year old girl to hunt duiker with her .223 ? can she shoot springbuck, Impala or small warthog, or is it a matter of my original long stated sentiment - the .223 is not a hunting caliber. I have and still believe that the 243 is not to be advised as an hunting rifle,even if just springbuck its just to borderline.
Does a 5.56 mm hole kill that much less effectively than a 6.86 hole ?. One mm. Apparently that is the case.
Is it the bullet weight or the hole ? Does velocity negate some of the weight loss or does the size of the hole just beat them all.

I want to know, need to know, because this is what I do once - twice a month 80 % of the time with someone else shooting. When we go remove an injured Impala out a group at night, can I use a .223 to shoot it at night with a spotlight, I do not like headshots, for your reasons.

Understood. For the record I wasn't accusing you. It was a general observation by someone who gets mouthy at people in the field who treat animals with disrespect and cruelty. In the hands of someone who shoots a lot of animals an 'iffy' calibre isn't the same as for a typist muppet like me.

1. Calibre - a bullet normally doubles in frontal size as it expands
.224 = .448 = 11.4mm
.243 = .486 = 12.3mm
6.5 = 13mm
.277 = .554 = 14.1mm
7.2 = 14.4mm
7.82 = 15,6mm

As can be seen and from practical experience as from the 270 the damage done by the bullet increases so as to be an important factor.

2. A friend of mine taught some youngsters to hunt game up to Impala size with his 223. He used Goodnel 55gr monolithic hollow points and reported nil game lost. The monos have the penetration ability that can reach both lungs.
3. Shooting at night with a spot light you get up close to the animal and headshots become feasible. Here a cup and core bullet will cause sufficient damage on smaller game to ensure one shot kills.
4. For many years the 243 was designated as the entry level hunting rifle. It punches way above its weight and I have shot many springbuck with it. It is also more effective on Impala and blesbuck. My experience was with mono bullets.
5. With the use of silencers youngsters can easily step up to heavier calibres that provide more lethality.

Shooting at animals with an iffy ammunition choice because you want to try it out is poor form. No different to hunting drunk. Causing unnecessary suffering to satisfy your curiosity or to stroke your ego makes you a doos.

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You sound a lot like me regarding animals and cages, spears and captivity and circus's. I think you got me a bit wrong with the .223 matter Oaf. I have no intention of experimenting or challenging myself with smaller and smaller calibers etc.
I do how ever want to know. I want to know can I allow a 12 year old girl to hunt duiker with her .223 ? can she shoot springbuck, Impala or small warthog, or is it a matter of my original long stated sentiment - the .223 is not a hunting caliber. I have and still believe that the 243 is not to be advised as an hunting rifle,even if just springbuck its just to borderline.
Does a 5.56 mm hole kill that much less effectively than a 6.86 hole ?. One mm. Apparently that is the case.
Is it the bullet weight or the hole ? Does velocity negate some of the weight loss or does the size of the hole just beat them all.

I want to know, need to know, because this is what I do once - twice a month 80 % of the time with someone else shooting. When we go remove an injured Impala out a group at night, can I use a .223 to shoot it at night with a spotlight, I do not like headshots, for your reasons.

The video is a poll to get the members to choose an elk cartridge. For very good reasons the final 3 are the 7mm Rem mag, 280AI and the 300WM. All medium sized cartridges that have proven their efficacy in the USA hunting field. No wonder I choose my 30-06 and 7x64 as my go to hunting rifles.

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You only chose the 30 06 as you do not have an .270 Win

The video is a poll to get the members to choose an elk cartridge. For very good reasons the final 3 are the 7mm Rem mag, 280AI and the 300WM. All medium sized cartridges that have proven their efficacy in the USA hunting field. No wonder I choose my 30-06 and 7x64 as my go to hunting rifles.

Shooting at animals with an iffy ammunition choice because you want to try it out is poor form. No different to hunting drunk. Causing unnecessary suffering to satisfy your curiosity or to stroke your ego makes you a doos.

55 gr expanding solid .223 bullet at 3800 fps (Shot as an example of speed kills).
220 gr 30 cal expanding solid at 1650 fps (Shot as an example of very heavy for that caliber).
500 gr 50 cal expanding solid at 1050 fps (shot as a subsonic big bore the guys mention).
600 gr 70 cal lead ball at 850 fps (shot as example of very heavy, very slow).

You forgot the 270 ;)

Serious though - any hunting done at 300m with a 223 on larger animals is just stupid. The chance of a wounded animal is just too great.

In firearm terms, the last three (220gr, 500gr and 600gr) bullets will work magnificently on shorter ranges, but even at 100m or 150m those to heavy ones need to be launched like mortars which out them out of the equation. It leaves the 220gr bullet to do the job.

Which is the more important for the purpose of hunting, if one leaned far to one side of the spectrum?. A heavy bullet, a fast bullet or a very big bullet.
I read all the above and came back to that same question. For the sake of clarity, I will give 4 examples I think will stir debate.

55 gr expanding solid .223 bullet at 3800 fps (Shot as an example of speed kills).
220 gr 30 cal expanding solid at 1650 fps (Shot as an example of very heavy for that caliber).
500 gr 50 cal expanding solid at 1050 fps (shot as a subsonic big bore the guys mention).
600 gr 70 cal lead ball at 850 fps (shot as example of very heavy, very slow).

I went with a hunter once in Durban and I saw him shoot 2 big bushpig with a .357 lever gun and some very heavy bullets that he had made himself.

In another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.

Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.

On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.

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Why must you let facts get in the way of a good post ?
Just nod your head sagely in agreement like the rest of the guys around the fire. I look clever, the guys all look like they understand and the subject lives to become another braai's deep discussion.

I consider myself reprimanded ;-)

Another question nagging me? If we used a, say 100 g .223 bullet,
How much of the inefficiency of the .223 can be attributed to 55 g bullets and how much attributed to .223 diameter ?

I am not aware of any readily available 100Gr bullet for the .223 ( .224 )
I think about 75 - 80gr is the largest ?
How long is it and will it fit the action - without going too deep into the case ?
You will also need a very fast twist barrel
Why not try and find a few and test ?

There are a number of other cases / cartridges that use .224 bullets eg 22 Creedmoor

New .224 Cartridge for AR Match Rifles

.224 Cal-83gr Hammer Hunter™

You will now have to add a few more variables to your calculations

t willing to test this on a free range animal)

Head shots are not a consideration because a head shot wounding on an estate or golf coarse will make you very famous very fast.

I would think an "escaped" body shot wounded animal with blood dripping would be a far more - career ending - event ?
I do believe that most professional culling people prefer head shots ?
Lots of shooting experience and from close range and a dead rest.

In another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.

Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.

On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.

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Why must you let facts get in the way of a good post ?
Just nod your head sagely in agreement like the rest of the guys around the fire. I look clever, the guys all look like they understand and the subject lives to become another braai's deep discussion.

In another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.

Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.

On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.

This is the reason I didn't become an engineer ;)

Thanks.

In another thread, Treeman mentioned that double speed quadruples the momentum.

Not true. I'm being my engineer self here, so excuse splitting hairs.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity. so double the speed doubles the momentum.

On the other hand Energy = Mass x (Velocity)^2. So double the speed quadruples the energy.

The answer lies in the challenge, but with borders. See if I can do it - even with a marginal calibre - because I know how to and am also capable of doing so under most given circumstances.

If that particular shot had been where it was intended, the animal would have expired much sooner.